PAP - up vs. down

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macfoo
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PAP - up vs. down

Post by macfoo »

Been lurking for awhile but curiosity finally got the best of me.

I see a lot of PAP references that refer to over and up, with a few as over and down.

What type of hand position and/or release would cause this?

I've been searching on the forums and can find references to inverted track in regards to PAP measurements being over and down but I'm curious as to cause and effect.


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Re: PAP - up vs. down

Post by bowl1820 »

Here's 3 threads about it

Question about PAP
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10631&hilit=anomaly

PAP Vertical Change
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10465&hilit=anomaly


Significance of Vertical Pap Coordinates
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3571&hilit=anomaly

According to Mo:
"The vertical coordinate has nothing to do with ball motion. It's an anomaly. The longer the thumb stays in the ball, the more the vertical coordinate is up. In full rollers, in which the thumb stays in the ball the longest, the vertical coordinate is usually 2+" up."
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Re: PAP - up vs. down

Post by Perrin »

Those all appear to be references to the vertical measurement of the PAP location.

What are the significances of the horizontal number? I for instance have my PAP 6 1/4 over and track immediately next to both the finger and thumb.

I've tried for quite some time to lower my track and have never been successful in doing so.
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Re: PAP - up vs. down

Post by macfoo »

Some good conversation on high track over here, btw:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4711" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Significance of the horizontal number is that it is the measurement from the center of your grip to the PAP. It's determined by how the ball is released. I'll leave it up to someone else to provide the details of the specifics of the significance because a) while I can see it for myself, I can't explain it and b) my pap is pretty wonky to begin with, so it's like the blind leading the blind :)
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Re: PAP - up vs. down

Post by bowl1820 »

Perrin wrote:What are the significances of the horizontal number? I for instance have my PAP 6 1/4 over and track immediately next to both the finger and thumb.
In regard to the horizontal number, Here's from Louis Marquez, IBPSIA President

Are you Drilling for your Customer Style?

So you know the drill, your customer asks for the strongest drilling angle, you max it out with a leveraged pin angle and some drilling angle degree this by that. Does it work in the bowler’s best interest based off of their PAP distance? Are you combining the fact that the bowler may be of a specific style of player, you should?



Here are some things to consider, first and foremost bowlers who tend to roll the ball more end over end or forward in rotation have unique characteristics to their ball motion. These bowlers because of this style tend to need more energy retention in the layout angle due to the fact that the ball has a smaller axis of rotation direction, generally 10-35°. This unique angle tends to use up the internal energy of the ball earlier as it rolls down the lane crossing from the oil to dry backend. A big complaint from this style is that the ball runs out of gas making the corner. These bowlers typically have larger Horizontal measurements ranging from 5-1/2 to 6-1/2” in the PAP measurement and should utilize more drilling angles that are conducive to storing energy and releasing them later in the lane. These drilling angles require larger primary and smaller secondary angles with larger pin to PAP distances to get the energy down the lane to a location where it is more noticeable, more advantageous to a higher scoring potential. This places the pin in a higher Rg quadrant and allows for more energy retention.

In bowlers where the angle of rotation are medium, around 40-60° with a 4-1/2 to 5-1/2” or medium size PAP distances varying layouts of the primary and secondary drill angle can be used. These bowlers will then need more emphasis on what degree compliments there condition they are to bowl on. Use of smaller primary angle to get the ball revving quicker or larger to delay the energy release coupled with smaller or larger secondary to make the transition quicker or gentle in transition will affect the total motion for a given condition. Keep in mind the distance of the pin to PAP can greatly affect the total portion of the energy to be used.

For bowlers who spin the ball or twirl it, these bowlers typically have smaller PAP measurements and larger axis of rotation angles 65-90°. These measurements range from 4-1/2 or less of a Horizontal Measurement and usually a larger vertical axis as well. These bowlers need help in getting the ball to make the corner as the tilt and axis of rotation tend to delay the release of energy. The complaint is that it never slows down or makes the corner. Using smaller primary angles and larger secondary allows for the drilling to lower the internal Rg allows for a quicker release of the balls energy.

These recommendations are just ideas as to how to match up a style to a layout, and are only to be used as a guide line but it can create a better success rate for 95% of your customers.

For more info visit Turbo Grips for the Motion enhancement Guide for the Pro Sect layout tool.

Louis Marquez

IBPSIA President

USBC Gold Coach

Dir. of Coaching for Turbo Tech
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
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Re: PAP - up vs. down

Post by ads »

bowl1820 wrote:
In regard to the horizontal number, Here's from Louis Marquez, IBPSIA President

Are you Drilling for your Customer Style?

So you know the drill, your customer asks for the strongest drilling angle, you max it out with a leveraged pin angle and some drilling angle degree this by that. Does it work in the bowler’s best interest based off of their PAP distance? Are you combining the fact that the bowler may be of a specific style of player, you should?



Here are some things to consider, first and foremost bowlers who tend to roll the ball more end over end or forward in rotation have unique characteristics to their ball motion. These bowlers because of this style tend to need more energy retention in the layout angle due to the fact that the ball has a smaller axis of rotation direction, generally 10-35°. This unique angle tends to use up the internal energy of the ball earlier as it rolls down the lane crossing from the oil to dry backend. A big complaint from this style is that the ball runs out of gas making the corner. These bowlers typically have larger Horizontal measurements ranging from 5-1/2 to 6-1/2” in the PAP measurement and should utilize more drilling angles that are conducive to storing energy and releasing them later in the lane. These drilling angles require larger primary and smaller secondary angles with larger pin to PAP distances [Should it be smaller PAP-PIN for Asym and larger for Sym?] to get the energy down the lane to a location where it is more noticeable, more advantageous to a higher scoring potential. This places the pin in a higher Rg quadrant and allows for more energy retention.

In bowlers where the angle of rotation are medium, around 40-60° with a 4-1/2 to 5-1/2” or medium size PAP distances varying layouts of the primary and secondary drill angle can be used. These bowlers will then need more emphasis on what degree compliments there condition they are to bowl on. Use of smaller primary angle to get the ball revving quicker or larger to delay the energy release coupled with smaller or larger secondary to make the transition quicker or gentle in transition will affect the total motion for a given condition. Keep in mind the distance of the pin to PAP can greatly affect the total portion of the energy to be used.

For bowlers who spin the ball or twirl it, these bowlers typically have smaller PAP measurements and larger axis of rotation angles 65-90°. These measurements range from 4-1/2 or less of a Horizontal Measurement and usually a larger vertical axis as well. These bowlers need help in getting the ball to make the corner as the tilt and axis of rotation tend to delay the release of energy. The complaint is that it never slows down or makes the corner. Using smaller primary angles and larger secondary allows for the drilling to lower the internal Rg allows for a quicker release of the balls energy.

These recommendations are just ideas as to how to match up a style to a layout, and are only to be used as a guide line but it can create a better success rate for 95% of your customers.

For more info visit Turbo Grips for the Motion enhancement Guide for the Pro Sect layout tool.

Louis Marquez

IBPSIA President

USBC Gold Coach

Dir. of Coaching for Turbo Tech

Thanks for the sharing. Only with 1 question [in green] to confirm.
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Re: PAP - up vs. down

Post by TonyPR »

ads, the answer to your question about pin to pap and many others you might have in the future are here:

http://above180.com/category/ball-drill ... es-series/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Listen to each podcast starting with part 1 and only move on to the next part when you understand the one before it, this may take listening to each more than once but at the end you will have a very good understanding on how the dual angle method works for both Sym and Asyms.
Complement this by reading the part of the Wiki that talks about how to determine your sweet spot and ratios.

After this, if you are still hungry, read Blueprint's Track Flare Study:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All this is a lot of work but also a lot of fun if you enjoy applying science to your game.
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Re: PAP - up vs. down

Post by Perrin »

bowl1820 wrote:Here are some things to consider, first and foremost bowlers who tend to roll the ball more end over end or forward in rotation have unique characteristics to their ball motion. These bowlers because of this style tend to need more energy retention in the layout angle due to the fact that the ball has a smaller axis of rotation direction, generally 10-35°. This unique angle tends to use up the internal energy of the ball earlier as it rolls down the lane crossing from the oil to dry backend. A big complaint from this style is that the ball runs out of gas making the corner. These bowlers typically have larger Horizontal measurements ranging from 5-1/2 to 6-1/2” in the PAP measurement and should utilize more drilling angles that are conducive to storing energy and releasing them later in the lane. These drilling angles require larger primary and smaller secondary angles with larger pin to PAP distances to get the energy down the lane to a location where it is more noticeable, more advantageous to a higher scoring potential. This places the pin in a higher Rg quadrant and allows for more energy retention.
I guess that is where I have my problem I am Exactly the opposite of what they are talking about here. I have a 6 1/4 over PAP but my natural rotation is actually high not low

Guess I am just backwards.
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PAP 6 1/4 over 1/8th up
rev dominant
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Re: PAP - up vs. down

Post by JohnP »

No, it just means you don't roll your ball end over end. Pete Weber has similar characteristics and he's done fairly well. -- JohnP
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Re: PAP - up vs. down

Post by bowl1820 »

Perrin wrote:
I guess that is where I have my problem I am Exactly the opposite of what they are talking about here. I have a 6 1/4 over PAP but my natural rotation is actually high not low

Guess I am just backwards.
Like a lot of things in bowling, it's not set in stone and you have to look at the individual case.

Like he say's at the end it's just a guide.
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
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