Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

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Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by 56bird »

What is the difference between "skid/flip" and "quick response time to friction"? Is there a difference?
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by EricHartwell »

How about skid/snap or long and strong or angular or hockey stick shape hook.

There are so many way to describe things with the English language

Quick response to friction could mean short skid zone, early revving, low ratio

Not trying to confuse things any more but....
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by 56bird »

It could be the problem is, some folks think of it as "left to right" and others think of it as "front to back".

A large portion of those who bother to think of such things would say something like an Uproar, with medium-high RG, weaker polished pearl cover, and lower-medium diff symmetrical weight block is a ball with quick response to friction. Or a Reign, a ball that some would say was one of the better skid-flip balls made. I get it, when it gets to the break point it snaps hard. Long and somewhat strong. A ball like that may be fun to roll, especially on forgiving conditions.

My point is, if a ball is going long, the thing it is doing before it gets to that break point and after it exits the pattern is "ignoring friction".

I don't know, but when I think of "quick response time to friction", at least in terms of core dynamics I think of Differential Ratio. I think of it front-to-back, a ball that will skid until it gets to the end of the pattern (not hooking at my feet because the cover and surface have overwhelmed the heads) but will have an early, sharp breakpoint when it sees friction.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by deanchamp »

56bird wrote:What is the difference between "skid/flip" and "quick response time to friction"? Is there a difference?
I think you answered your own question pretty well in your 2nd post. In terms of semantics, skid/flip to me would be a ball that is skidding through the oil and through any early friction to save energy to be quite angular in the back end.

A quick response time to friction is just that, the ball will rev up and change direction as soon as it encounters friction, which isn't ideal on a THS for example as it will do this with friction on the o/s of the pattern and /or the end of the pattern. And this may not hook much either; it could be a hook/stop type response or more fwd roll...

As Eric said, unfortunately there are lots of terms and even more interpretations. This is purely my take on it.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by ads »

"Left to right" is what most bowlers' "snap" here in my city. I was one of them. Turn corner at last mile (50th feet) all the way from 5th board to 17.5th.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by spmcgivern »

I have used both of those terms recently.

For me, skid/snap is term used to describe the overall reaction of the ball. This is a culmination of all things coming together to make a ball that is skid/snap. (core, drilling, coverstock, lane conditions)

"Quick response" is a term I used to describe specifically a coverstock. Some coverstocks react to friction faster than others. Could be a characteristic of the urethane make-up or a characteristic of the surface prep.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by kellytehuna »

deanchamp wrote:A quick response time to friction is just that, the ball will rev up and change direction as soon as it encounters friction, which isn't ideal on a THS for example as it will do this with friction on the o/s of the pattern and /or the end of the pattern. And this may not hook much either; it could be a hook/stop type response or more fwd roll...
I like this response quite a bit. In general, a quicker response to friction means a faster 2nd transition. That means, skid/flip or hook/set most of the time. However, as Dean pointed out, if it transitions too quick, the ball will never corner. This often happens if the bowler is trying to play too steep through the front with ball that has too much surface and a very aggressive layout. That ball transitions so fast, it's basically rolling end over end before it comes off the pattern. Not a great look at all ;)
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by deanchamp »

Good to see you back Kelly, and the Kiwis are looking good in the cricket world cup.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by 56bird »

kellytehuna wrote:

I like this response quite a bit. In general, a quicker response to friction means a faster 2nd transition. That means, skid/flip or hook/set most of the time.

This is the meat of the discussion, right here.

Dude rolls his Storm Reign, let's say it's pin-up. It skids, it skids, it skids.... crap is this thing ever going to hook? Then it finally responds to friction, has a very fast second transition, goes SIDEWAYS and boom, pins everywhere, messenger takes out the ten. Was the second transition quick/fast? It was. It just wasn't quick *vs when it first saw friction*.

My contention is that you could take the same coverstock, wrap it around, say, a Storm Sync core, Paragon core what have you... a strong Asym. Punch it with a double thumb layout. Same cover same surface, but where the Reign ignored the first X feet of friction and kept skidding, the theoretical ball will get into it's second transition sooner... due to greater Diff Ratio.

I think of this in terms of front-to-back. The "skid-flip=quick response time to friction" crowd are thinking of it as left-to-right. I'm not sure that it's a case of "right and wrong", just a different way of thinking of things.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by MegaMav »

Quick response time to friction would be an indication of how early a ball starts hooking when it hits friction.
Skid/Flip is a generalization of ball motion. Probably a layman's attempt as describing a motion that burns off tilt and rotation quickly.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

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MegaMav wrote:Quick response time to friction would be an indication of how early a ball starts hooking when it hits friction.
Seems to line up pretty well with what I've been saying and also Brunswick's definition as I see it:

"Response time

Measures how a bowling ball responds to friction. A fast response time means that the bowling ball responds quicker when it encounters friction. Slow response is just the opposite...." http://www.brunswickbowling.com/product ... finitions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I keep thinking I'm looking at this wrong and then I'm convinced I'm right again.

To my way of thinking, *when thinking of core dynamics and layouts*, "quick response to friction" relates directly to "spin time", the lower the spin time, the quicker the response time. I *think* the lower the response time, the more "asym" the drilled ball, yes?

Yet when asked "what is your favorite skid-flip ball of all time" I suspect *most* answers will be something like "My old pin-up Reign", "My Victory Road (pearl) or Hyroad Pearl", Brunswick describes it pretty well with the new Rhino Pro- "BALL MOTION-With its Royal Compound Finish, the Vintage Gold Rhino Pro skids effortlessly through the front, maintaining axis rotation for the backend to provide superior entry angle to the pocket and exceptional pin action." Google "Ebonite Skid-flip" and you come up with yet another symmetric ball, the Magic. Not sure which Radical ball embodies it best, Torrid Affair maybe? Original Yeti? One of the Grease Monkeys?

I can't help but think that the motion Brunswick describes with the Rhino Pro- "...skids effortlessly through the front, maintaining axis rotation for the backend to provide superior entry angle to the pocket...", is just the opposite of what I think of when I think of "quick response time to friction".

Sorry to beat this dead horse further to death but I really think it would be helpful if we could nail down a description of "quick response time to friction". When Eric came up with a layout for my Defiant Soul (not to mention ball selection), I wanted "quick response time to friction" and I GOT it, with his slightly modified double-thumb layout. You'd be surprised how often this ball comes into play on what I'd describe as a fairly slick, lower ratio THS... especially with my mad tilt. I was and am blissfully happy with the ball and layout, because when we selected them we were speaking the same language!
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by kellytehuna »

deanchamp wrote:Good to see you back Kelly, and the Kiwis are looking good in the cricket world cup.
Thanks, Dean! I'm gonna try to be a little more active here. Might not work out as much as I would like, but I'll try :)

Random fact - Kane Williamson's twin brother was the setter on my club Volleyball team the year before I move the States! Never seen the kid play, but apparently he's a bit of a phenom with the willow in hand.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by MegaMav »

Rick,

Vocabulary has been holding back education within the sport of bowling since before you and I were born. Its been perpetuated over time because the powers that be choose not to standardize anything other than the size of the card you get in the mail each year.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by Mo Pinel »

56bird wrote:What is the difference between "skid/flip" and "quick response time to friction"? Is there a difference?
Skid/flip implies that the ball retains axis rotation better.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by MWhite »

Mo Pinel wrote:
Skid/flip implies that the ball retains axis rotation better.

How do you drill a ball that is thrown with high rev rate, to give up axis rotation faster?

Every reactive resin ball I've tried seems to have too much angular momentum, resisting the change of axis rotation, which nets me close to 30 degrees entry angle, and when the break point is about 45 feet means I'm lucky to hit the 7 pin.

I'm relegated to urethane due to it's less efficient ability to grip the lane surface.

I've been able to get the break point down the lane further on PBA experience conditions, but still achieve too much angle of entry. Also, my old body isn't capable of throwing the ball 20+ mph other than dead straight.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by Mo Pinel »

MWhite wrote:

How do you drill a ball that is thrown with high rev rate, to give up axis rotation faster?

Every reactive resin ball I've tried seems to have too much angular momentum, resisting the change of axis rotation, which nets me close to 30 degrees entry angle, and when the break point is about 45 feet means I'm lucky to hit the 7 pin.

I'm relegated to urethane due to it's less efficient ability to grip the lane surface.

I've been able to get the break point down the lane further on PBA experience conditions, but still achieve too much angle of entry. Also, my old body isn't capable of throwing the ball 20+ mph other than dead straight.

Never seen anywhere near 30* of entry angle. Not possible! Give me your ACCURATE axis tilt and PAP and I'll recommend a ball and a layout.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by LabRat »

What Mo said. At 30* entry angle a ball on 17 board would take the 1-2-4-7 straight into the corner without touching the rest of the deck. Not possible.
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Re: Skid-flip vs. quick response time to friction?

Post by 56bird »

Mo Pinel wrote:
Skid/flip implies that the ball retains axis rotation better.
Thanks Mo, and can we take it one step further and say that a ball with "quick response time to friction" *sheds axis rotation better*?

Not stating it as a fact, just asking. One thing I love about my Defiant Soul with modified (by Mav) double-thumb layout is, unless I screw up the thing WILL get into a roll, even with my oodles of tilt and rotation. At least, on everything I've rolled it on so far...

Also, welcome back Sir!
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