What's my REAL PAP

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Triplicate
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What's my REAL PAP

Post by Triplicate »

Hi all.... I'm new to this forum but by no means new to forums. I've been bowling a long time. I'm a senior in great shape. :) I have what may be a loaded question but I'm curious as to what the response my be.

Over the years I've learned to adjust to changing lane conditions not only with moves and ball changes but with loft, speed and hand positions.

I can release the ball with various release styles. I can tilt the ball anywhere from 5 to 25 deg. and I can release the ball anywhere from 10 to 90 deg. axis rotation. I start with approx. 5 deg. tilt and 75 deg axis rotation.

I can easily and consistently loft the ball out to 4' past the line or 6" past if need be. I like to start with 2 ft and change more or less from there.

I vary my speed from as low as 15 and as high as 19 mph also depending on lane conditions weather its house leagues or major tournaments. I generally like to be 17 but will modify my speed as required to strike and keep striking.

Given the variety of balls I have with various internal dynamics, I don't have one measurement I can determine that is consistent among all my equipment for my PAP.

My spare ball works out to 6" over and 3/4" up (right handed) and usually hits the thumb hole which I'm OK with. My other equipment varies to as low as 4 1/2 over and 1 1/2 up.

These various releases I've mention all work well when I need them so what am I to do to determine my PAP? Can I generalize and say my PAP "average" is something like 5 over and 1 up? Is there a correct average for me? Also... should I be concerned in the first place?

Is there one or more dual angle layouts I should use that is best for me and my various release styles? Is there something that is most compatible and responsive for my situation? Maybe I need two very different combinations for the two extremes. I don't know and that's why I'm here. :?

Have these issues ever been thought of before? What do you think and why?

Regards
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by kellytehuna »

While I couldn't give you a definitive answer, I'm sure you would use the PAP that you get using your "stock", most comfortable release. Since you said you tend to start with 5° tilt, 70° rotation and 2' of loft, the PAP that you get from THAT release would probably be the one you want to use.

As for the PAP off of your spare ball, I believe Mo recommends using the PAP off a ball you have that has similar flare properties as the ball you intend to drill up.

All your stats should be those from your so called A game, which in your case seems to be:
  • Speed: 17mph
  • Revs: ???
  • Tilt: 5°
  • Rotation: 70°
As you can see, the only piece that has been left out of this post is your rev rate. Once you add that piece to the puzzle, we can give you a good idea as to what layouts would work best for you, though I suspect with your versatility, you could probably make about anything work for you :)

I hope that gets things started as far as answering your question goes...
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Triplicate »

Sorry for not mentioning that. My videos suggest I'm about 270 with my high RG balls and a little higher with my core heavy equipment. So I can get to 280 without ripping it or in other words a relaxed grip during my release.

Also for what it's worth my track is very high and sometimes (1 or 2% of the time) I catch the thumb hole on the first or second rev. in the migration not that this bothers me. ;)

Regards
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by elgavachon »

When you are throwing low tilt, you would want balls with higher sums and higher ratios. When you are throwing high tilt, you would do better with lower sums and smaller ratios. Mo says lofting is outdated.I always thought people who were good at adjusting needed fewer balls. You just changed my thinking. I think Mo said that the average on tour was 55* rotation with around 14* tilt. I would start there for your 1st choice of where to start (if you are equally comfortable)
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Mo Pinel »

Triplicate wrote:Hi all.... I'm new to this forum but by no means new to forums. I've been bowling a long time. I'm a senior in great shape. :) I have what may be a loaded question but I'm curious as to what the response my be.

Over the years I've learned to adjust to changing lane conditions not only with moves and ball changes but with loft, speed and hand positions.

I can release the ball with various release styles. I can tilt the ball anywhere from 5 to 25 deg. and I can release the ball anywhere from 10 to 90 deg. axis rotation. I start with approx. 5 deg. tilt and 75 deg axis rotation.

I can easily and consistently loft the ball out to 4' past the line or 6" past if need be. I like to start with 2 ft and change more or less from there.

I vary my speed from as low as 15 and as high as 19 mph also depending on lane conditions weather its house leagues or major tournaments. I generally like to be 17 but will modify my speed as required to strike and keep striking.

Given the variety of balls I have with various internal dynamics, I don't have one measurement I can determine that is consistent among all my equipment for my PAP.

My spare ball works out to 6" over and 3/4" up (right handed) and usually hits the thumb hole which I'm OK with. My other equipment varies to as low as 4 1/2 over and 1 1/2 up.

These various releases I've mention all work well when I need them so what am I to do to determine my PAP? Can I generalize and say my PAP "average" is something like 5 over and 1 up? Is there a correct average for me? Also... should I be concerned in the first place?

Is there one or more dual angle layouts I should use that is best for me and my various release styles? Is there something that is most compatible and responsive for my situation? Maybe I need two very different combinations for the two extremes. I don't know and that's why I'm here. :?

Have these issues ever been thought of before? What do you think and why?

Regards

Versatility is definitely an asset. The more versatile you are with your physical game, the fewer balls you need. I've never run into a person that can do all the things you say you can do equally well and do all of them really well. What is the style at which you repeat the best? What are those delivery specs? What is the PAP when you throw it that way?
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Triplicate »

Good Morning Mo. The fact that I'm comfortable with these variations is exactly why I'm having difficulty getting a handle on this. I have an upright style, well balanced during the delivery and it's easy for me to post the shot.

Yes being versatile helps me a great deal, but really, it's not as difficult as it seems to pull it off. It's just that I have put all of these things into play for many years. Making all of these changes during my game is really not that difficult and it's easy to manage. Yes, putting all this in play at the same time seems unconventional. My experience has been I can stay with the same ball much longer when others on my pair are scrambling for their next ball.

Lofting (slightly) and consistently comes from this upright style and the ball always being 8" (+/- 1" at most) above the foul line at my release. I generally get a 3/4 ball rev. in the air on general conditions by a release point parallel to the lane surface. The exception would be heavy oil where I tend to get it into the lane sooner with slow speeds. When I'm up against worn heads and mid lane (say 20% +/- of the time) I'll get 1 full rev when playing faster with an other foot or so of loft just from my swing speed increase alone. I simply start with a higher push away and the rest comes natural using my same tempo and rhythm without exerting any extra effort. It's not difficult to repeat.

Having said all this, I know the ball dynamics (depending on the one in my hand) are working more or less the moment I let it go into the air so I don't get an oil ring until impact and beyond. Therefore my first oil ring is really from the start of the second rev.

You mentioned you don't need a lot of equipment with all this versatility and that would seem correct but in my real life experiences it hasn't worked out that way. I have 8 balls right now that I put into play with 4 or 5 of them being used 80% of the time. I've trashed many other balls that just don't work well for me. Very annoying.

Welcome to the problem I'm trying to get a handle on. I'm in Canada next to Detroit. Our pro shop people really don't know dittily about layouts so I'm on a mission to learn this myself with your help. I will layout the ball for them. I have a great fit so thats all behind me.

What's the best layout or layouts (2 or 3?) I should be using to accommodate my game style? These/this layout/s need to provide a stepladder approach for heavy oil conditions on through to dry broken down conditions.

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question. My goal here is to get equipment layouts that will allow me to play my A game which is really like a W.R.W.J. My strengths are going straight up the outside, playing the track and swinging a line across the 3rd arrow out to 5 or 8 at the break point. Going deeper for me is out of the question so my layout suggestions need to accommodate these lines. I don't think I've got enough hand or approach style to go deeper. I'm not going to walk drifting left nor am I going to walk around ball returns on the right lane. On the left lane I can easily loft it over the left gutter, hitting 50 but I don't have the hand or desire to be there. :)

Sorry for the long posts but I feel I can't expect good advice if I don't fully explain my issues or make my thoughts clear.

Regards
Ed
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by robert »

I agree with Mo.

If you are able to do all those things with your hand, you could get away with just the 1 ball.
I believe it was on xtra frame this year, when after WRW jr won another title, they asked the 900 global ball rep about his equipment.
His response was:
He only uses this ball model, they are all drilled with the pin around here (showing just above and to the right of ring finder), the PSA somewhere around here (showing just below and right of thumb hole), we drill a new one every 40 games and that's it.

My opinion is this:
The effect of altering tilt and / or rotation and / or speed can make 10 times more difference than any effect of different layouts.

As for which pap to use.
When you have chosen which release and lane conditions you want to drill the ball for, measure the pap on a similar ball when using that release.

If you lay out a ball for playing really fast, up the back of the ball with low rotation on long oil and then you take it to short oil, give it a ton of rotation and throw it slow, well the pap is irrelevant, it probably won't roll as you want it to.

How about some details about the balls you didn't like, their layouts and what you didn't like about them.

Robert
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Triplicate »

Hi Robert... thanks for your input.

Funny think you should mention WRWJ last show on extra frame. I seen that show as well since they offered it free for everyone. The interview was with Michael Hagen from Global900 who is now holding the ball. WRWJ's ball they showed on TV is pictured here.

Image

This image is the best I can do given the small amount of time it was on my screen.

Please describe what you see.

I see a pin above and slightly to the right of the ring finger. Looks like the CG is slightly right of center and I don't know what I'm looking at beside the thumb. Is this a weight hole? Is this the PSA as you've already mentioned? I have a feeling it's the now retired "BOUNTY" ball that is shown. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyone know what WRWJ PAP measurements are? The win your taking about was the USBC Masters. He had just recently signed with Global900 at that time.

Anyway... given your reply above of using one ball sets my head spinning. :shock: I'm afraid my driller/s have been feeding me layouts that work, to be sure, but I now believe I've never used, been given or suggested a layout that would be considered the best one for me and my characteristics.

I have to bear down and come up with my best selection for my PAP as suggested previously here by Mo and others.


Regards
Ed
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by robert »

If you had subscription to extra frame I'd point you to the latest bowl expo interviews.
What you might find interesting was Bill O Neil's comments for hammer, where he states that he finds a ball he likes and puts various drillings on it.

I'm not saying you should only have 1 ball, was just trying to emphasize that if you are as versatile as you say, you can make any one ball do many different things.

Forget the spare ball pap since I expect you throw it completely differently than any of your normal shots.
Try to determine your "A" game, the one you best control, use the most and usually start with, and make your measurements based on that.
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Triplicate »

OK... I've spent a couple of hours with my video camera, marking oil lines, testing, video replays, different ball etc and have come up with my "A" game specifications. :D

Tilt = 0-5 deg.
Rotation = 85-90 deg.
Speed 16 to 17 mph
RPMs 225 to 250
PAP 5 1/2 over and 1 1/2 up.

If I choose 16 mph for my speed then my revs go to 250. With a 17 mph speed choice my revs go to 225. Both of these speeds I'd say are "A" game. This would be my comfort/benchmark starting point.

Regarding my PAP... I noticed that 5.5 x 1.5 is off my hand and continues down lane for a minimum of 4 ft. With some balls the PAP will begin transition starting at 4 ft while other weaker core balls with high gloss 4000 will keep a steady PAP through to mid lane and beyond sitting steady at 5 deg and 85 deg.

I can easily vary my Tilt and Rotation from the given values but this is my natural "A" game comfort zone. Tilts from 5 to 20 are achievable but 95% of the time I'll be 5 to 10 max. Rotations however can and do vary a great deal depending on what I need so 30 to 45 are just as common and comfortable for me as 85. 45 is what I can easily and consistently "make" happen but If I have no reason to reduce the rotation I like to stay with my "natural' 85.

Regards
Ed
Last edited by Triplicate on September 5th, 2010, 3:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Triplicate »

robert wrote:If you had subscription to extra frame I'd point you to the latest bowl expo interviews.
What you might find interesting was Bill O Neil's comments for hammer, where he states that he finds a ball he likes and puts various drillings on it.
O Neil is a great young bowler and is always in the hunt. This surprises me because I like the differences between low and high rg not to mention weaker cores vs strong cores. Maybe he can vary the layouts enough to give himself enough adjustments for the range of situations he gets. I would not dare to argue with success. Interesting comment.
robert wrote:I'm not saying you should only have 1 ball, was just trying to emphasize that if you are as versatile as you say, you can make any one ball do many different things.
Yes I enjoy being able to make the ball behave the way I want with hand and speed changes and not having to move so soon, but moves are only delayed. I still have to move and change balls to stay matched up.
robert wrote:Forget the spare ball pap since I expect you throw it completely differently than any of your normal shots..
Actually I don't change the way I throw my spares so all spares get my normal release. My belief system is that you should repeat shots and that includes your release. I'll always teach this and recommend this system to others. I've found when you change in such a way you try to kill the shot your going to affect accuracy since the "different" release can and does change the ball path causing you to miss your intended target.
robert wrote:Try to determine your "A" game, the one you best control, use the most and usually start with, and make your measurements based on that.
Done! See separate post above. Thanks
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by TMack »

Triplicate wrote:OK... I've spent a couple of hours with my video camera, marking oil lines, testing, video replays, different ball etc and have come up with my "A" game specifications. :D

Tilt = 5 deg.
Rotation = 85 deg.
Speed 16 to 17 mph
RPMs 225 to 250
PAP 5 1/2 over and 1 1/2 up.

If I choose 16 mph for my speed then my revs go to 250. With a 17 mph speed choice my revs go to 225. Both of these speeds I'd say are "A" game. This would be my comfort/benchmark starting point.

Regarding my PAP... I noticed that 5.5 x 1.5 is off my hand and continues down lane for a minimum of 4 ft. With some balls the PAP will begin transition starting at 4 ft while other weaker core balls with high gloss 4000 will keep a steady PAP through to mid lane and beyond sitting steady at 5 deg and 85 deg.

I can easily vary my Tilt and Rotation from the given values but this is my natural "A" game comfort zone. Tilts from 5 to 20 are achievable but 95% of the time I'll be 5 to 10 max. Rotations however can and do vary a great deal depending on what I need so 30 to 45 are just as common and comfortable for me as 85. 45 is what I can easily and consistently "make" happen but If I have no reason to reduce the tilt I like to stay with my "natural' 85.

Regards
Ed
Just curious....how do you change your tilt so much? Axis rotation I understand, but tilt is very difficult to change.

Tim
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Triplicate »

Hi Tim... Tell me which way you want to go. What's your tilt now and where are you trying to get it to.

Regards
Ed
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by TMack »

Triplicate wrote:Hi Tim... Tell me which way you want to go. What's your tilt now and where are you trying to get it to.

Regards
Ed
I'm currently at 8-9* and would like to get it up to 15*. I have tried many different releases but can't seem to get it to move much......if any......LOL.

Tim
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Triplicate »

Tim... you spin the ball more to increase the tilt.

Assuming your right handed.... for this example your looking down on the ball like you would look down at your feet. Your at the fowl line at the release point. The pins are at 12 o'clock and the foul line is running through the ball from 9 and 3 o'clock. Also all examples are a 3 o'clock release for maximum axis rotation.

Moving/changing your tilt is a combination of rotation and lift direction.

0# tilt would be lifting up the side of the ball, say fingers at 3 o'clock (90 deg rotation)and thumb at 9 o'clock and you do so while keeping your thumb at 9 and fingers at 3 all the way through the lift without any ccw rotation. (still looking down on the ball).

8# tilt would be lifting less up the side of the ball (think more forward lift combined) plus permitting the ball to rotate say 3 rpm ccw during this brief release moment.(still looking down on the ball).

15# tilt would be lifting a little less in the up and a little more in the forward direction plus permitting the ball to rotate more (faster), say 6 rpm ccw during this brief release moment.(still looking down on the ball).

You can call it spin or topping the ball more. Think about lifting forward towards your target as opposed to lifting up through the ball. Plus think about more higher rpm's in the CCW direction during the release sequence.

This may also lower your track a bit.

I hope this makes sense!

Regards
Ed
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Mo Pinel »

TMack wrote: I'm currently at 8-9* and would like to get it up to 15*. I have tried many different releases but can't seem to get it to move much......if any......LOL.

Tim

COCK, BUT DON'T CUP YOUR WRIST! If your right handed, start with your fingers at 8 o'clock and have your fingers go left to right across the ball. That increases tilt. Take a video from behind to make sure you are actually doing what you're trying to do. Funny things happen behind a person's back while they're bowling. TURN, DON'T LIFT!
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by TMack »

Triplicate wrote:Tim... you spin the ball more to increase the tilt.

Assuming your right handed.... for this example your looking down on the ball like you would look down at your feet. Your at the fowl line at the release point. The pins are at 12 o'clock and the foul line is running through the ball from 9 and 3 o'clock. Also all examples are a 3 o'clock release for maximum axis rotation.

Moving/changing your tilt is a combination of rotation and lift direction.

0# tilt would be lifting up the side of the ball, say fingers at 3 o'clock (90 deg rotation)and thumb at 9 o'clock and you do so while keeping your thumb at 9 and fingers at 3 all the way through the lift without any ccw rotation. (still looking down on the ball).

8# tilt would be lifting less up the side of the ball (think more forward lift combined) plus permitting the ball to rotate say 3 rpm ccw during this brief release moment.(still looking down on the ball).

15# tilt would be lifting a little less in the up and a little more in the forward direction plus permitting the ball to rotate more (faster), say 6 rpm ccw during this brief release moment.(still looking down on the ball).

You can call it spin or topping the ball more. Think about lifting forward towards your target as opposed to lifting up through the ball. Plus think about more higher rpm's in the CCW direction during the release sequence.

This may also lower your track a bit.

I hope this makes sense!

Regards
Ed
Thanks Ed........ what you said make sense. Now if I can teach this old dog new tricks.....LOL

Thanks,
Tim
Last edited by TMack on September 4th, 2010, 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by TMack »

Mo Pinel wrote:
COCK, BUT DON'T CUP YOUR WRIST! If your right handed, start with your fingers at 8 o'clock and have your fingers go left to right across the ball. That increases tilt. Take a video from behind to make sure you are actually doing what you're trying to do. Funny things happen behind a person's back while they're bowling. TURN, DON'T LIFT!
Thanks Mo..... I think what I have been doing is cocking and cupping. That might explain why my tilt has not changed. So if I understand this correctly, you need to cock the wrist and come more around the back of the ball as apposed to underneath the ball.

Thanks,
Tim
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Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Triplicate »

kellytehuna wrote:All your stats should be those from your so called A game, which in your case seems to be:
  • Speed: 17mph
  • Revs: ???
  • Tilt: 5°
  • Rotation: 70°
I hope that gets things started as far as answering your question goes...
Tilt = 0-5 deg.
Rotation = 85-90 deg.
Speed 16 to 17 mph
RPMs 225 to 250
PAP 5 1/2 over and 1 1/2 up.

See full response for details.

Regards
Ed
Last edited by Triplicate on September 4th, 2010, 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Axis Rotation: 45+-
Location: Canada

Re: What's my REAL PAP

Post by Triplicate »

elgavachon wrote:When you are throwing low tilt, you would want balls with higher sums and higher ratios. When you are throwing high tilt, you would do better with lower sums and smaller ratios. Mo says lofting is outdated.I always thought people who were good at adjusting needed fewer balls. You just changed my thinking. I think Mo said that the average on tour was 55* rotation with around 14* tilt. I would start there for your 1st choice of where to start (if you are equally comfortable)
Averages are fine but there are many exceptions that do very well. WRWJ and PDW have done very well with lower tilts and higher rotations. ;) PDW has always been low tilt and high rotation. WRWJ can also do this but he will reduce rotation when need be.

Regards
Ed
Last edited by Triplicate on September 4th, 2010, 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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