Mo, help please:Conventional for a rapid growing 9 yr old

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TonyPR
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Mo, help please:Conventional for a rapid growing 9 yr old

Post by TonyPR »

Hello!

It all started the other day when my 9 yr old girl was practicing with her coach for next Sunday's tournament. She has been bowling since last February and is actually doing pretty well in her youth league for such a short time in her sport. We observed that she was throwing the 8 lbs ball she has had since May very hard end her arm was out of control. Coach decided to hand her a 9 lbs house ball and like magic it smoothed out her swing and was hitting her mark consistently enough to bowl a 144 which at her level is very nice. Coach told me to get her a mild reactive Cyclone and to drill it fingertip...

Well I had some legitimate concern, after all she is growing at a very swift pace now, 2 inches taller since last August! I decided to do some research and found the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=582" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just what I thought, it's better to wait for her to finish growing... When I was a kid, I wasn't allowed to get a fingertip grip until the age of 14. Don't want to risk damaging anything, It's just like ballet, you don't put a girl on tip ballet shoes until she goes through some slow development and training...

Anyway, on that thread I noticed that Mo mentioned that he used reverse linears on the fingers in a conventional drilling for his son and that it helped him learn how to roll the ball and played with a modest hook until he got a fingertip drilling at age 15.

I asked my coach/driller (not the same coach as my daughter's) and he also agrees on not putting such a young kid on fingertips. He also told me that conventional drilled balls don't have reverse linears in the fingers and that if the span is measured with the joint in the middle of the hole that the knuckle would rub at the top of the hole. He demostrated this also but of course this was with forward linear pitches...

I studied the conventional drilling instructions in the Wiki but found no reference for how much reverse finger linears and decided to send a PM to Mo and ask him for some help. Of course he agreed and I PM him back and told him I was going to start a thread so that others who are in the same situation may also benefit from this instruction.

Mo was very helpful in my Wiki fit which is actually the best fit I have ever had. I know that my daughter doesn't have much reference for comparison and feels her current grip is good but I want her to have the best, most comfortable fit so she can easily keep on developing into a great bowler as she really loves the sport and I know that a good fit is one of the most important things. I don't mind having to plug and redrill her ball every 6 months as I know she is growing and needs her fit to be checked often.

She decided to break her piggy bank and bought herself a 9 lbs White Dot, that's how motivated she is. I decided to keep her on plastic as she is still learning the basics and I want her to learn how to shoot straight at spares and hit her mark consistently before throwing the variables of break point, skid/hook/roll, carry and oil patterns into the mix... yes, her league plays on sport patterns sometimes and the tournaments are also sport patterns... For now a plastic ball gives her less things to worry about so she can concentrate on her swing.

We decided to get her new ball drilled before we got Mo's recommended grip because as I said earlier, she has a tournament this Sunday and I don't mind plugging and redrilling after that.

So here is her current grip:
by the way, she is a Lefty...
-RF: 37/64 hole, Span: 3 5/16", 1/4" Forward, 3/8" Left
-MF: 5/8" hole, Span: 3 3/16", 1/4" Forward, 3/8" Right
-Thumb: 23/32 hole (opened a bit as she felt it was hanging but she was probably squeezing)
1/4" Forward, 1/4" Left

Mo asked me to get her fan chart, thumb flex and spans to knuckle in middle of hole:
-Fan chart angle: 17* so line B would be closest, this calls for RF 9/16" L, MF 5/16" R
-Thumb flex: See attached photo (very flexible, her joints are made of rubber, she can touch her forearm with her thumb... ouch!)
-Spans: RF 3 1/8", MF 2 15/16"
-Thumb Lateral: See attached photo, 1/8" Left

So there it is... Have a nice day!
By the way, the specs in my signature are mine not hers...
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Re: Mo, help please:Conventional for a rapid growing 9 yr ol

Post by TonyPR »

Mo, glad to have you back and happy to hear business is good.
My girl just won 1st overall in the PR Catholic School Tournament, her game is developing steadily and she is already swinging the 9 pound ball a bit too hard, might need to buy a 10 lbs ball soon so I am bumping this thread. I want to drill her next ball with an adapted conventional grip: reverse in fingers like you suggested in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=582" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Was thinking:
Fan chart for finger laterals, stretch span 1/8" more from recommeded conventional, thumb lateral from cylinder, thumb linear from chart, finger linears as suggested for RF on Sarge Easter but on both RF and MF:
Span 3 1/8 - 3 3/8" = 1/8" Reverse
Span 3 3/8 - 3 5/8" = 1/4" Reverse
Span 3 5/8 - 3 7/8" = 3/8" Reverse
Span 3 7/8 - 4 1/8" = 1/2" Reverse

Am I on the right track?
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Re: Mo, help please:Conventional for a rapid growing 9 yr ol

Post by LabRat »

Kids have no problem swinging on monkey bars and climbing, where the joints in the hand and fingers have to support their whole body weight. Conventional drill puts all the stress on one joint of the finger, a properly fitted fingertip spreads the weight across both finger joints. It also gives a greater window of usability as the kids grow - I think conventional grips need to be a much better fit than fingertips do, especially spanning, to avoid issues.
Just my 2c, but I have had kids as young as 7 in fingertip grips. Two of them are now Australian reps.
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Re: Mo, help please:Conventional for a rapid growing 9 yr ol

Post by TonyPR »

I wouldn't put her on fingertips until she's about 14-15, meanwhile I would like her to try what Mo did for his son on her next ball:

Mo wrote:
"I'm a traditionalist when it comes to this. Because of the lack of maturity of kid's growth joints, I stay with conventional for a long time. I didn't put my youngest into a fingertip until he was 15. I taught him to slow hook a conventional and used surface. He's now 21 and gets PDW ball reaction because of his fast hand. Add reverse to the fingers and lengthen the span very slightly in the conventional to help it roll. Teach him to stick his finish, feed the ball into the lane and to the right to perfect his technique. That will be better in the long term, but it may be a struggle in the short term."

I just would like to know what formula Mo used to lengthen the conventional span for his son and how to determine the amount of reverse in the fingers.
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Re: Mo, help please:Conventional for a rapid growing 9 yr ol

Post by TonyPR »

For those following this thread Mo replied in PM

His recommended specs for my daughter to learn how to roll hook conventional are:
MF 3 1/16", 1/4 Reverse, 5/16" Right
RF 3 1/4", 3/8" Reverse, 9/16" Left
Thumb 11/16" Forward, 1/8" Left
Remember she is a lefty.

Basically the span was stretched 1/8" for RF and 1/8" for MF and fingers were given reverse pitch.
Thumb Linear was taken from the Thumb Angle Chart and Finger Laterals from the Fan Chart.
Last edited by TonyPR on September 26th, 2016, 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mo, help please:Conventional for a rapid growing 9 yr ol

Post by Mo Pinel »

Done!
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