Guru vs. Everything Else
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
Very cool video. And definitely one of the most detailed currently out. I must admit I wanted to see it compared to the crux, as well as the mastermind. Maybe next video you could put all the balls at the same surface?
Make spares make cut, miss spares miss cut. " Bill O'Neil "
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
I've been thinking about Mo's comment regarding surface and I think he is right. The manufacturers do what they do for a reason. If they promote a ball as for heavy oil, then it should be finished with a surface appropriate for that condition. If it isn't, that's not Mo's problem. Leaving them at box also means there is no bias into the surface chosen - the test maintains the integrity of the manufacturers intent.kboveington wrote:Very cool video. And definitely one of the most detailed currently out. I must admit I wanted to see it compared to the crux, as well as the mastermind. Maybe next video you could put all the balls at the same surface?
Chemistry is like cooking - just don't lick the spoon.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
Thanks for the confirmation. I thought the same way you did.LabRat wrote: I've been thinking about Mo's comment regarding surface and I think he is right. The manufacturers do what they do for a reason. If they promote a ball as for heavy oil, then it should be finished with a surface appropriate for that condition. If it isn't, that's not Mo's problem. Leaving them at box also means there is no bias into the surface chosen - the test maintains the integrity of the manufacturers intent.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
The Crux was not available when the test was done, or it would have been there.kboveington wrote:Very cool video. And definitely one of the most detailed currently out. I must admit I wanted to see it compared to the crux, as well as the mastermind. Maybe next video you could put all the balls at the same surface?
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
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- Posts: 342
- Joined: May 24th, 2013, 8:39 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 5 7/16 right ⅜ down
- Speed: 20-21 mph at foul line
- Rev Rate: 550
- Axis Tilt: 5
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Medium Oil Ball: storm IQ tour pearl
- Light Oil Ball: rotogrip scream
- Preferred Company: storm/roto grip
- Location: Cleveland Ohio
Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
Those are all valid points. However I think putting the balls at the exact same surface neutralizes the playing field completely. For example the deadly aim is finished at 4000. Of course that ball will go 60ft on heavy oil. Most competitive bowlers would put a lower grit on that ball if the intent was to use it on heavy oil.
Honestly the sinister looked to be a better heavy oil ball. I personally liked the heavier mid lane roll compared to the guru. However the guru might be a good complimentary piece once the sinister is too early or starts hitting flat. Looks like I would be able to move further left and trust the ball would come back.
I still enjoyed the video and thought it was very informative. Just trying to make a good thing even better.
Honestly the sinister looked to be a better heavy oil ball. I personally liked the heavier mid lane roll compared to the guru. However the guru might be a good complimentary piece once the sinister is too early or starts hitting flat. Looks like I would be able to move further left and trust the ball would come back.
I still enjoyed the video and thought it was very informative. Just trying to make a good thing even better.
Make spares make cut, miss spares miss cut. " Bill O'Neil "
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
Mo: thank you for the Guru layout recommendation!!! It is amazing. I added a 15/16 x 3 p3 balance hole and it is exactly what i hoped it would be.
Bahshay and i were really impressed with the overall hook of this ball. I was playing 5th arrow and breaking around 7 going dead flush. The roll is strong but super consistent, no jumpiness at the break, just pure power.
I won't pull any punches here......I love my Sinister but the Guru is definitely the most overall hook I have experienced without the erratic transition that gets you in trouble. Im expecting good scores with this one!
Bahshay and i were really impressed with the overall hook of this ball. I was playing 5th arrow and breaking around 7 going dead flush. The roll is strong but super consistent, no jumpiness at the break, just pure power.
I won't pull any punches here......I love my Sinister but the Guru is definitely the most overall hook I have experienced without the erratic transition that gets you in trouble. Im expecting good scores with this one!
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
Fair enough!!!!! The Guru is something very special. And the Sinister is a nice ball.mattypizon wrote:Mo: thank you for the Guru layout recommendation!!! It is amazing. I added a 15/16 x 3 p3 balance hole and it is exactly what i hoped it would be.
Bahshay and i were really impressed with the overall hook of this ball. I was playing 5th arrow and breaking around 7 going dead flush. The roll is strong but super consistent, no jumpiness at the break, just pure power.
I won't pull any punches here......I love my Sinister but the Guru is definitely the most overall hook I have experienced without the erratic transition that gets you in trouble. Im expecting good scores with this one!
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
I feel like Matt sold the ball short by saying that he and I were impressed by the amount of hook. The motion also received praise from the pro shop assistant, bowling alley manager, and the bowlers next to us. Impressive ball indeed.mattypizon wrote:Mo: thank you for the Guru layout recommendation!!! It is amazing. I added a 15/16 x 3 p3 balance hole and it is exactly what i hoped it would be.
Bahshay and i were really impressed with the overall hook of this ball. I was playing 5th arrow and breaking around 7 going dead flush. The roll is strong but super consistent, no jumpiness at the break, just pure power.
I won't pull any punches here......I love my Sinister but the Guru is definitely the most overall hook I have experienced without the erratic transition that gets you in trouble. Im expecting good scores with this one!
PAP- 4 1/8 over, 3/4 up
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
Mo
This refers to your comment on Sinister but really applies to all balls. You said Sinister tested at 1800 grit on the prophylometer, despite it reported 4000 OOB by Rotogrip. BJI, who you referred to, reports
3150 effective grit. Can you elaborate on these differences 1800/3150/4000 and similar ones with other makers? Thanks
Dave
This refers to your comment on Sinister but really applies to all balls. You said Sinister tested at 1800 grit on the prophylometer, despite it reported 4000 OOB by Rotogrip. BJI, who you referred to, reports
3150 effective grit. Can you elaborate on these differences 1800/3150/4000 and similar ones with other makers? Thanks
Dave
Senior Bowler
Tilt 23
Rot 20-40
Speed off hand 17-18
Rev 200-250
PAP 4 5/8 over 1 up RH'd 185+ On THS
Tilt 23
Rot 20-40
Speed off hand 17-18
Rev 200-250
PAP 4 5/8 over 1 up RH'd 185+ On THS
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
Check with BJI on how they arrived at their #. Mine is an approximation based on balls that have previously been tested.davidjr113 wrote:Mo
This refers to your comment on Sinister but really applies to all balls. You said Sinister tested at 1800 grit on the prophylometer, despite it reported 4000 OOB by Rotogrip. BJI, who you referred to, reports
3150 effective grit. Can you elaborate on these differences 1800/3150/4000 and similar ones with other makers? Thanks
Dave
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
I have a few comments and a question.
In regards to the OOB surface, I think it was a question of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Even if the testers had adjusted all of these to a particular surface, you'd have people saying "well, my favorite ball would have done much better if you'd chosen a different surface", or, "How are we to know the surface adjustments were the same... brand new pads every time, same exact duration and pressure...", maybe if it had all been machine-done you might dodge the questions but I'm not sure.
You might have done the biggest favor to Ebonite. There's a general concensus out there that the top shelf Ebonite products are piss-weak compared to the other bigs, well my recent experience with a Pivot Point says otherwise and so does this test. Makes one wonder (again) about the "Perfect Scale" (Pivot is around 212, Sinister is what, 230?). They look roughly the same to me in the test. Ebonite's marketing is truly vanilla and hype-free, but they are making some good stuff.
Comparing the Guru to the Sinister/Pivot, I do wonder what accounts for the difference in the way they read (with the Guru longer, but as strong or stronger than the other two). Is it the somewhat lower diff of the Guru? The slightly higher Mass Bias? Something to do with the core shape (drilled numbers)? It is what it is, but I find it interesting.
My final thought should be an obvious observation if it's not. Only one manufacturer today has the cajones to publish such a comparison.
In regards to the OOB surface, I think it was a question of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Even if the testers had adjusted all of these to a particular surface, you'd have people saying "well, my favorite ball would have done much better if you'd chosen a different surface", or, "How are we to know the surface adjustments were the same... brand new pads every time, same exact duration and pressure...", maybe if it had all been machine-done you might dodge the questions but I'm not sure.
You might have done the biggest favor to Ebonite. There's a general concensus out there that the top shelf Ebonite products are piss-weak compared to the other bigs, well my recent experience with a Pivot Point says otherwise and so does this test. Makes one wonder (again) about the "Perfect Scale" (Pivot is around 212, Sinister is what, 230?). They look roughly the same to me in the test. Ebonite's marketing is truly vanilla and hype-free, but they are making some good stuff.
Comparing the Guru to the Sinister/Pivot, I do wonder what accounts for the difference in the way they read (with the Guru longer, but as strong or stronger than the other two). Is it the somewhat lower diff of the Guru? The slightly higher Mass Bias? Something to do with the core shape (drilled numbers)? It is what it is, but I find it interesting.
My final thought should be an obvious observation if it's not. Only one manufacturer today has the cajones to publish such a comparison.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
Truly valid observations.56bird wrote:I have a few comments and a question.
In regards to the OOB surface, I think it was a question of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Even if the testers had adjusted all of these to a particular surface, you'd have people saying "well, my favorite ball would have done much better if you'd chosen a different surface", or, "How are we to know the surface adjustments were the same... brand new pads every time, same exact duration and pressure...", maybe if it had all been machine-done you might dodge the questions but I'm not sure.
You might have done the biggest favor to Ebonite. There's a general concensus out there that the top shelf Ebonite products are piss-weak compared to the other bigs, well my recent experience with a Pivot Point says otherwise and so does this test. Makes one wonder (again) about the "Perfect Scale" (Pivot is around 212, Sinister is what, 230?). They look roughly the same to me in the test. Ebonite's marketing is truly vanilla and hype-free, but they are making some good stuff.
Comparing the Guru to the Sinister/Pivot, I do wonder what accounts for the difference in the way they read (with the Guru longer, but as strong or stronger than the other two). Is it the somewhat lower diff of the Guru? The slightly higher Mass Bias? Something to do with the core shape (drilled numbers)? It is what it is, but I find it interesting.
My final thought should be an obvious observation if it's not. Only one manufacturer today has the cajones to publish such a comparison.
Your paragraph:
Comparing the Guru to the Sinister/Pivot, I do wonder what accounts for the difference in the way they read (with the Guru longer, but as strong or stronger than the other two). Is it the somewhat lower diff of the Guru? The slightly higher Mass Bias? Something to do with the core shape (drilled numbers)? It is what it is, but I find it interesting.
The answer is the unique core shape of the Guru. Related to a factor other than RGs, and diffs. That test is confirmation of our proprietary technology stemming from the good, old Offset patent.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
Mo is that the principal the 3D Offset Hammers (Faball) were made on ?
Loved those balls in the mid to late 90's
Loved those balls in the mid to late 90's
Greg Robertson.
Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up
Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
The original 3D Offsets were the beginning of this technology, but at a much lower level of it. There's more to come.Pulsetech wrote:Mo is that the principal the 3D Offset Hammers (Faball) were made on ?
Loved those balls in the mid to late 90's
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
- Pulsetech
- Member
- Posts: 213
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- THS Average: 222
- Positive Axis Point: 5 over 1/2 up
- Speed: 18
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- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Guru
- Medium Oil Ball: Score
- Light Oil Ball: Grease Monkey
- Preferred Company: Storm /Radical
- Location: Melbourne Australia
Re: Guru vs. Everything Else
Thanks for your Reply Mo
Those balls were revolutionary
Those balls were revolutionary
Greg Robertson.
Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up
Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up