Guru vs. Everything Else

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Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by MegaMav »

Probably the most meaningful video released in a long time.
I'm glad Radical was the one to produce it.

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by scotts33 »

I saw Nick Smith posted this also. Nice video. Wish we had some volume to use one of these. :mrgreen:
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by Mo Pinel »

MegaMav wrote:Probably the most meaningful video released in a long time.
I'm glad Radical was the one to produce it.

[youtube][/youtube]

Thanks, Mav! Just saw it. This is the video Radical produced from the slides we showed during our recent product preview. Combined with the October Bowlers Journal review by Vern Peterson, it's compelling evidence of the strength of this ball. It has a great heritage. It's the great grandson of the 3D Offset.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by Mongo »

Kudos to Mo and the Radical staff for putting this out.

So rare to see balls across different brands compared in this manner. Would love to see this be more common.

Also, more sold on Guru than ever. Will definitely have one punched up for Vegas.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by Daryl »

Fantastic idea in video presentation, and impressive ball reaction. Mo are there any plans to put these remarkable core designs into much tamer coverstocks like old urethane (not the new hybrid urethane)? As much as I would love to get Radical equipment, they are to radical for my rev dominant style. And I rarely see oil volumes that would require the use of Radical's high tech balls. So anything in the plans for low hooking coverstocks with high tech cores? I think that would be a good need to fill for the average league bowler who does not want the 30 board hook.

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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by DustinD »

Some constructive criticism.

I think it is a great concept and wish all ball reviews could be done this way. It's a good video but it could have been a little more apples to apples comparison.

I get this is supposed to be a Radical marketing video showing strength of Guru but.....

Comparing a Guru (low rg high diff asym) to some high RG Pearls (cruel intent) and low diff asym (ZG). Why not compare apples to apples and show Guru vs the rest of the competitions hybrid/solid cover low rg high diff asyms like Jackal/Crux/Hyper Cell/Black Widow Legend etc?

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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by Mongo »

Building on what Dustin said, it would be better to see theGuru compares to like "heavy oil" balls with similar specs.

To help me, I'd like to see it compared to a Hyper Cell, Pivot, Antics, Virtual Gravity Nano, etc.


Like to see how it matches up to other assymetrical, solid, lower RG, "stronger" balls...just to help see how they compare.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by LabRat »

The pivot was on the list -it struck on the same line as the Guru, but was stronger in the oil with less backend (obv). Interesting points:
The deadly aim is a sym. No way it was going to compete with a 5" pin - PAP. ZG may as well be a sym, ditto.
Pivot, Guru and Sinister all struck. Guru was cleanest through the heads with the most backend, both it and the Pivot are 500/1500 box. Sinister is 4000 box, but was still earlier than the Guru :shock: - how strong would it be with more surface?
Cruel Intent never looked like getting there, but box finish is 5000. Seems odd for Motiv to put it out at 5000 as their heavy oil piece, especially as most bowlers won't change it. May have been different at 1500.
Nice shape on the Guru, shame it needs a lake to be usable. (edit - shame for me, that is)
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by LabRat »

Mo, can I suggest/ask that next time you put some tape on the PAP and fingers so we can see the ball transition easier? That's the only thing wrong with a black ball, imo.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by Arkansas »

LabRat wrote:The pivot was on the list -it struck on the same line as the Guru, but was stronger in the oil with less backend (obv). Interesting points:
The deadly aim is a sym. No way it was going to compete with a 5" pin - PAP. ZG may as well be a sym, ditto. Not really. The Deadly Aim is .008 Int. Diff., the Zero Gravity is .010. Mo uses .008 as the cutoff as to whether or not to treat balls as asyms. Both balls clearly qualify.
Pivot, Guru and Sinister all struck. Guru was cleanest through the heads with the most backend, both it and the Pivot are 500/1500 box. Sinister is 4000 box, but was still earlier than the Guru :shock: - how strong would it be with more surface? Really? The Sinister is no where near 4000 box. Just because they finish by touching the surface with a 4000 pad over 500 firm and 2000 light does not make it 4000.
Cruel Intent never looked like getting there, but box finish is 5000. Seems odd for Motiv to put it out at 5000 as their heavy oil piece, especially as most bowlers won't change it. May have been different at 1500.
Nice shape on the Guru, shame it needs a lake to be usable. (edit - shame for me, that is)
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by LabRat »

Mo uses 0.010" as the cutoff.
"If the intermediate diff. of the undrilled ball is .010" or more, it's asymmetrical.
If the intermediate diff. of the undrilled ball is <.010", it's symmetrical.
The rest is fertilizer!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

So, the DA is a sym effectively, the ZG barely qualifies and has a weaker core anyway. It's the core asymmetry that drives flare at long pin-PAP's, and it looked to me like neither ball is flaring as much as the others in the video. Less flare = more skid.

Re the sinister, it should still be a weaker surface (500/2000/4000 than 500/1500 of the Guru and Pivot, even if only a little. Be interesting to see a vid of the Guru at different surface finishes, seeing as it is so clean at 1500.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by Arkansas »

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5408&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by LabRat »

More recent, and in a thread asking specifically about the DA:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9491" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is also a more recent one that my quote (from Mo, which I should have made more clear I guess) was taken from, can't find it atm though. (edit - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10326" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Note that even in the thread you mentioned Mo says the PSA will move substantially for low mb strength balls. Again, it's about the flare potential of the ball at long pin-PAP measurements. I feel that this depends on a strong core and strong PSA.
It's still a very nice video, I'm just suggesting the DA may be stronger with a more symmetric targeted layout. Minor issue.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by Bahshay »

Also worth mentioning about the ZG - though it does sit at .10, Mattypizon drilled one up and spun it on a determinator. It spun to the thumb like a sym. I would expect the deadly aim to do the same.

Anyway, great video. Out of curiosity, how did the bowler specs get picked? I was surprised to see the throwbot release with only 7* of tilt!! Has that been found to be average among all bowlers or all amateur bowlers or something?
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by Mo Pinel »

Bahshay wrote:Also worth mentioning about the ZG - though it does sit at .10, Mattypizon drilled one up and spun it on a determinator. It spun to the thumb like a sym. I would expect the deadly aim to do the same.

Anyway, great video. Out of curiosity, how did the bowler specs get picked? I was surprised to see the throwbot release with only 7* of tilt!! Has that been found to be average among all bowlers or all amateur bowlers or something?
Good question! They wanted to do it on a heavy oil flat pattern, 31.6 mls. To get the balls to transition on that much oil, they had to find a rev rate, axis rotation, and axis tilt that wuld allow all the balls to transition at the right time. The graphical analysis done by purduepaul shows that all the balls reach their 2nd transition at 53 ft. Read the parameters for the balls, which show that ALL of them were bowled with at factory finish for 5 games before the test was done. The manufacturer chose the surface they wanted to present the ball at. The 500/4000 finish on the Sinister is a fake out, as you have seen before. Measured accutately with the right device (prophylometer), it measures about 1800 grit. It is a very accurately done scientific demonstration. Kudos to Ray Edwards, Billy O, and Pat Mitchell, who performed the test.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by LabRat »

Mo Pinel wrote: The 500/4000 finish on the Sinister is a fake out, as you have seen before. Measured accutately with the right device (prophylometer), it measures about 1800 grit.[/color]
OK, that makes sense.
@Bahshay - IIRC Mo has said that core design plays a big part in whether the asymmetry holds after drilling of marginal asyms.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by mattypizon »

So the Guru IS longer than the Sinister?!?!?!? I dont think either "trusted" magazine review supports that HOWEVER this video is more consistent across the board than what they're doing.

With that being said does anyone want to take a stab at offering a layout for my Guru im drilling tomorrow morning????? PLEASE!!

I want it to complement my Sinister either above or below. Sinister is 50/4/40 and is very very strong for me. Id love the Guru to actually transition 5 ft sooner without having an erratic break point but still hit!! Maybe 40/4.25/50 on Guru????
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by Mo Pinel »

mattypizon wrote:So the Guru IS longer than the Sinister?!?!?!? I dont think either "trusted" magazine review supports that HOWEVER this video is more consistent across the board than what they're doing.

With that being said does anyone want to take a stab at offering a layout for my Guru im drilling tomorrow morning????? PLEASE!!

I want it to complement my Sinister either above or below. Sinister is 50/4/40 and is very very strong for me. Id love the Guru to actually transition 5 ft sooner without having an erratic break point but still hit!! Maybe 40/4.25/50 on Guru????

The BJI review supports it. The data is accurate and quite overwhelming. Nothing anywhere that detailed anyplace else. What is your current sinister layout? As always, I take a stab. The Guru will always hit. The entry angle data says so.
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by mattypizon »

50/4/40 no bal hole
Rev rate ~ 350
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Re: Guru vs. Everything Else

Post by Mo Pinel »

mattypizon wrote:50/4/40 no bal hole
Drill the Guru 45 / 4 1/4 / 40.
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