NEW Radical Asym Layouts
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- Member
- Posts: 502
- Joined: February 11th, 2011, 9:36 pm
- THS Average: 203
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 right x 1 up
- Speed: 20 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Preferred Company: Radical, Storm, Motiv
NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Looking for some explanation on the revised layouts.
Are these strictly for the Radical asyms or all asyms?
With vast differences in release specs how can these be the only recommended layouts now?
With my lower tilt I've always shied away from any pins more than 4" from my PAP?
Did I miss another study hehe?????
Are these strictly for the Radical asyms or all asyms?
With vast differences in release specs how can these be the only recommended layouts now?
With my lower tilt I've always shied away from any pins more than 4" from my PAP?
Did I miss another study hehe?????
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
- RobRmR
- BCU Graduate Layouts
- Posts: 20
- Joined: February 18th, 2014, 1:32 am
- THS Average: 230
- Positive Axis Point: 5.25+.75
- Speed: 19mph(FL)
- Rev Rate: 400
- Axis Tilt: 13*
- Axis Rotation: 50*
- Heavy Oil Ball: Guru
- Medium Oil Ball: ReaX Gusto
- Light Oil Ball: Yeti Uncaged
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: Brick,NJ
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
I have gotten two Guru's so far and they each have different layout sheets in them. One is with the new layouts and one with the layouts seen in the other Radical asymmetrical balls. I think these new recommended layouts are meant to keep things simpler for less educated drillers. The other sheets have a lot of different layouts on there so maybe that was confusing some drillers on which one to use?
RH
5 3/16" +3/4"
13* Tilt
50* Axis Rotation
19mph @ FL
~425 RPM
5 3/16" +3/4"
13* Tilt
50* Axis Rotation
19mph @ FL
~425 RPM
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- BCU Graduate Layouts
- Posts: 124
- Joined: April 2nd, 2011, 2:09 pm
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
My interpretation is the new sheet that comes with the GURU is specific to the Guru and its unique weight block. I was told by a staffer that their Score came with the old drill sheet for asyms, so I don't think the Guru drill sheet represents a change in thinking, just an advancement.
- Mo Pinel
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Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Let's discuss what's going on. The new Radical asymmetrical drill sheets are generic in nature. The better the ball design, the better they work. There was a clamor for more easy to read drill sheets by some ball drillers. We did a thorough research project to develop that type of drill sheet for those drillers. We did empirical testing supported by extensive technical back up. The new A, B, C, and D's were the result of that project. ALL Radical asymetrical balls work extremely well with those new layouts. If you prefer the tilt specific, more detailed layouts, please feel free to use those time proven layouts. The result is that you now have a more extensive list of possible layouts to use. ENJOY!!justhere4thefood wrote:My interpretation is the new sheet that comes with the GURU is specific to the Guru and its unique weight block. I was told by a staffer that their Score came with the old drill sheet for asyms, so I don't think the Guru drill sheet represents a change in thinking, just an advancement.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
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- Member
- Posts: 502
- Joined: February 11th, 2011, 9:36 pm
- THS Average: 203
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 right x 1 up
- Speed: 20 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Preferred Company: Radical, Storm, Motiv
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Where I'm lost is the fact that I've always been told to stay under 4" pin to PAP on my asyms.
So when I see 50/5/40 with a P3 I'm shaking in my boots!!
Few questions tho:
1) how important is the P3 on layout A and the P1 on layout D?
2) am I to assume a high rev, low tilt, med rotation guy and a speed dom, higher tilt guy BOTH will use 50/5/40 P3 if each wants Length with strong hit????
3) last.......are pin down layouts safe if I clip the middle finger on symmetrical pin downs?
I'm afraid drilling a Guru with Layout A will roll straight for me all the way down the lane.
So when I see 50/5/40 with a P3 I'm shaking in my boots!!
Few questions tho:
1) how important is the P3 on layout A and the P1 on layout D?
2) am I to assume a high rev, low tilt, med rotation guy and a speed dom, higher tilt guy BOTH will use 50/5/40 P3 if each wants Length with strong hit????
3) last.......are pin down layouts safe if I clip the middle finger on symmetrical pin downs?
I'm afraid drilling a Guru with Layout A will roll straight for me all the way down the lane.
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
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- Member
- Posts: 143
- Joined: March 8th, 2010, 3:33 pm
- THS Average: 220
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
- Speed: 17-18 at Release
- Rev Rate: 425
- Axis Tilt: 15
- Axis Rotation: 65
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
- Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Avalanche Solid
- Preferred Company: Radical
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
I drilled a Guru with Layout A and did not use a P3 hole. There is nowhere I could put a weight hole that would be flare safe! Track flare starts an inch or so left of my grip and the back flares end up about an inch right of my grip. That being said, performance of this ball is fantastic. I will probably be drilling another one with Layout D soon.
mattypizon wrote:Where I'm lost is the fact that I've always been told to stay under 4" pin to PAP on my asyms.
So when I see 50/5/40 with a P3 I'm shaking in my boots!!
Few questions tho:
1) how important is the P3 on layout A and the P1 on layout D?
2) am I to assume a high rev, low tilt, med rotation guy and a speed dom, higher tilt guy BOTH will use 50/5/40 P3 if each wants Length with strong hit????
3) last.......are pin down layouts safe if I clip the middle finger on symmetrical pin downs?
I'm afraid drilling a Guru with Layout A will roll straight for me all the way down the lane.
- Mo Pinel
- Rest In Peace
- Posts: 10054
- Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
- Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
- Location: Richmond, VA
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
That would make you a unique individual. Fear makes cowards of us all! Just hope you don't get beat by one of them, which is a distinct possibility.mattypizon wrote:Where I'm lost is the fact that I've always been told to stay under 4" pin to PAP on my asyms.
So when I see 50/5/40 with a P3 I'm shaking in my boots!!
Few questions tho:
1) how important is the P3 on layout A and the P1 on layout D?
2) am I to assume a high rev, low tilt, med rotation guy and a speed dom, higher tilt guy BOTH will use 50/5/40 P3 if each wants Length with strong hit????
3) last.......are pin down layouts safe if I clip the middle finger on symmetrical pin downs?
I'm afraid drilling a Guru with Layout A will roll straight for me all the way down the lane.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
-
- Member
- Posts: 502
- Joined: February 11th, 2011, 9:36 pm
- THS Average: 203
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 right x 1 up
- Speed: 20 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Preferred Company: Radical, Storm, Motiv
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Fine!!!! Ill just drill a Crux then 120/1.5/10 with a P6 Motion Hole!
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
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- Pro Shop
- Posts: 140
- Joined: June 28th, 2010, 9:02 pm
- THS Average: 221
- Positive Axis Point: 4 3/8" X 0
- Speed: 16.5-17.5
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 40
- Heavy Oil Ball: Still Looking for one . . .
- Medium Oil Ball: Roto Grip Cell (original)
- Light Oil Ball: Storm Fast
- Preferred Company: Storm
- Location: North Adams, MA
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Matty,Mo Pinel wrote: Let's discuss what's going on. The new Radical asymmetrical drill sheets are generic in nature. The better the ball design, the better they work. There was a clamor for more easy to read drill sheets by some ball drillers. We did a thorough research project to develop that type of drill sheet for those drillers. We did empirical testing supported by extensive technical back up. The new A, B, C, and D's were the result of that project. ALL Radical asymetrical balls work extremely well with those new layouts. If you prefer the tilt specific, more detailed layouts, please feel free to use those time proven layouts. The result is that you now have a more extensive list of possible layouts to use. ENJOY!!
With all due respect, I don't know why this is such a big issue. I understand you are frustrated with Mo's last post. . . BUT, Mo answered your question to start and stated that he did the testing for these layouts. He also said you could use the other, tilt specific, layout sheets. Now I won't deny that I questioned the layout at first too! I was able to throw these at the product demo as well as a few friends of mine. They were drilled in a similar manner. I and one of my friends are low tilt, medium rotation bowlers. My speed is more matched he's slightly speed dominant but has 350+ rpm as well. These balls reacted great. I also drilled an Endless Nightmare 30/5/35 w/P3 hole. I expected to only be able to use it on sport patterns. I am able to use it, at the box 1500 sanded surface, on our 43' house shot without any issues. Just have to be deep enough. It doesn't just roll forward and die like I expected.
- RobRmR
- BCU Graduate Layouts
- Posts: 20
- Joined: February 18th, 2014, 1:32 am
- THS Average: 230
- Positive Axis Point: 5.25+.75
- Speed: 19mph(FL)
- Rev Rate: 400
- Axis Tilt: 13*
- Axis Rotation: 50*
- Heavy Oil Ball: Guru
- Medium Oil Ball: ReaX Gusto
- Light Oil Ball: Yeti Uncaged
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: Brick,NJ
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
TheMilkMan wrote: Matty,
With all due respect, I don't know why this is such a big issue. I understand you are frustrated with Mo's last post. . . BUT, Mo answered your question to start and stated that he did the testing for these layouts. He also said you could use the other, tilt specific, layout sheets. Now I won't deny that I questioned the layout at first too! I was able to throw these at the product demo as well as a few friends of mine. They were drilled in a similar manner. I and one of my friends are low tilt, medium rotation bowlers. My speed is more matched he's slightly speed dominant but has 350+ rpm as well. These balls reacted great. I also drilled an Endless Nightmare 30/5/35 w/P3 hole. I expected to only be able to use it on sport patterns. I am able to use it, at the box 1500 sanded surface, on our 43' house shot without any issues. Just have to be deep enough. It doesn't just roll forward and die like I expected.
I am also a lower tilt player and Layout A has not given me any trouble. As long as there is some oil it never rolls too forward too quickly. I even keep it at the 500/1500 box finish and haven't had any problems at all with to much roll. Ball had tons of angle on heavy oil!
RH
5 3/16" +3/4"
13* Tilt
50* Axis Rotation
19mph @ FL
~425 RPM
5 3/16" +3/4"
13* Tilt
50* Axis Rotation
19mph @ FL
~425 RPM
-
- Member
- Posts: 502
- Joined: February 11th, 2011, 9:36 pm
- THS Average: 203
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 right x 1 up
- Speed: 20 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Preferred Company: Radical, Storm, Motiv
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Appreciate the replies. My previous comment was somewhat of a joke.
However when ive been told by the master himself to stay under 4" and then these new findings come out you bet im going to want clarification!!!!
Ive spent thousands trying to nail the asym layouts so forgive me if im a little frustrated.
There is A LOT of business riding on the success of my next ball experience so i was being thorough before proceeding.
Ive also seen a contradiction between these new layouts being recommended for all asyms as well as just the Radical asyms so not sure how to "educate" my driller who doesnt get on here much or have time for all the seminars out there.
However when ive been told by the master himself to stay under 4" and then these new findings come out you bet im going to want clarification!!!!
Ive spent thousands trying to nail the asym layouts so forgive me if im a little frustrated.
There is A LOT of business riding on the success of my next ball experience so i was being thorough before proceeding.
Ive also seen a contradiction between these new layouts being recommended for all asyms as well as just the Radical asyms so not sure how to "educate" my driller who doesnt get on here much or have time for all the seminars out there.
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
- scotts33
- Member
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- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8" > 3/8" up
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- Rev Rate: 325
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- Axis Rotation: 60
- Heavy Oil Ball: Motiv T10 LE 60* 4" 60* no hole symm. OOB pin down
- Location: Madison, WI
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Isn't the true fix....bowler release coaching maybe thru Jim Merrill to gain more tilt? To me that would alleviate a lot of Matt's issues. Call me crazy but I have worked with some local players to do just this and thru fit and release bowlers can gain tilt by working on just that.
You can teach old dogs new tricks.
You can teach old dogs new tricks.
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- Member
- Posts: 502
- Joined: February 11th, 2011, 9:36 pm
- THS Average: 203
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 right x 1 up
- Speed: 20 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Preferred Company: Radical, Storm, Motiv
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Depends if u REALLY believe 10* tilt is a problem.
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
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- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 5 7/16 right ⅜ down
- Speed: 20-21 mph at foul line
- Rev Rate: 550
- Axis Tilt: 5
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Medium Oil Ball: storm IQ tour pearl
- Light Oil Ball: rotogrip scream
- Preferred Company: storm/roto grip
- Location: Cleveland Ohio
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
I've bowled with matt for a couple years now. His release is very consistent! Baring he gets that same fit for his 20 balls he owns *wink*. He could use some work on getting to the line, yes. But his axis rotation, rev rate, and ball speed make up for the low tilt. Imo
Make spares make cut, miss spares miss cut. " Bill O'Neil "
- scotts33
- Member
- Posts: 802
- Joined: August 13th, 2009, 12:30 pm
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8" > 3/8" up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 325
- Axis Tilt: 17
- Axis Rotation: 60
- Heavy Oil Ball: Motiv T10 LE 60* 4" 60* no hole symm. OOB pin down
- Location: Madison, WI
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
I would believe it is if you constantly post these issues which if you go back to here and BR.com I see numerous posts about this issue. So, yes I would say if you continually post these issues it's an issue. Long term fix.....fix the bigger issue. I'll guess you are great on the fresh down and in and have issues inside deep? Ball reads too early deeper inside and hits flatter? Bowlers tend to always go to equipment rather than their own factors. Equipment can help but the long term fix is your game again IMO.mattypizon wrote:Depends if u REALLY believe 10* tilt is a problem.
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- Member
- Posts: 502
- Joined: February 11th, 2011, 9:36 pm
- THS Average: 203
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 right x 1 up
- Speed: 20 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Preferred Company: Radical, Storm, Motiv
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
I have 4 asyms right now that roll really well for me. The biggest issue we discovered was our home house pattern but this year they have modified it to a 42 ft Stone Street type pattern and its made a big difference.
I can see why my past would be brought into the discussion but it really doesn't negate the need for a THOROUGH explanation of the changes since they are vastly different.
Not to mention telling people they should use 50/5/40/ p3 for length with hit but also recommending something like 70/3/30 on the same ball for similar result bothers me (yes that happened).
Mo and i text often and i have said often I LOVE THE GUY! I was just looking for a detailed understanding and now its getting out of hand.
I apologize for any feathers ruffled but THIS is supposed to be the place people come for the TECHNICAL side of bowling no?!?!?!
(Capitalization used for emphasis not anger)
I can see why my past would be brought into the discussion but it really doesn't negate the need for a THOROUGH explanation of the changes since they are vastly different.
Not to mention telling people they should use 50/5/40/ p3 for length with hit but also recommending something like 70/3/30 on the same ball for similar result bothers me (yes that happened).
Mo and i text often and i have said often I LOVE THE GUY! I was just looking for a detailed understanding and now its getting out of hand.
I apologize for any feathers ruffled but THIS is supposed to be the place people come for the TECHNICAL side of bowling no?!?!?!
(Capitalization used for emphasis not anger)
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
- Mo Pinel
- Rest In Peace
- Posts: 10054
- Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
- Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
- Location: Richmond, VA
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Interesting comment! The MOtion Hole on the Crux will move it's breakpoint down the lane, which will help it. That ball tends to hook much sooner and slightly less than the Guru. Sorry you find contradiction in the two layout systems. Necessity is the mother of invention. I learned a ton from the empirical layout study which resulted in the new generic asym. layouts. They do work. Comments here confirm that. I admit we only tested the new layouts with our balls (Radical). That's business. I am using them on other balls with people looking for recommendations. So far, so good. We keep learning, thank God! Keep texting.mattypizon wrote:Fine!!!! Ill just drill a Crux then 120/1.5/10 with a P6 Motion Hole!
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
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- Pro Shop
- Posts: 140
- Joined: June 28th, 2010, 9:02 pm
- THS Average: 221
- Positive Axis Point: 4 3/8" X 0
- Speed: 16.5-17.5
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 40
- Heavy Oil Ball: Still Looking for one . . .
- Medium Oil Ball: Roto Grip Cell (original)
- Light Oil Ball: Storm Fast
- Preferred Company: Storm
- Location: North Adams, MA
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Mo,
Will there be anything released on the study that was done? I'm sure the tech junkies like myself would love to see the data! Btw, it was great seeing you in East Hartford!! I've been yelling at Sweets about his foot work. Seems to be helping, although he's battling some bowling demons. Hopefully drilling a Score for him will motivate him properly!
Will there be anything released on the study that was done? I'm sure the tech junkies like myself would love to see the data! Btw, it was great seeing you in East Hartford!! I've been yelling at Sweets about his foot work. Seems to be helping, although he's battling some bowling demons. Hopefully drilling a Score for him will motivate him properly!
-
- Member
- Posts: 502
- Joined: February 11th, 2011, 9:36 pm
- THS Average: 203
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 right x 1 up
- Speed: 20 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Preferred Company: Radical, Storm, Motiv
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
Thx for chiming in Mo! And yes sir, God is good!
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Re: NEW Radical Asym Layouts
I guess I'm still confused. I'm not trying to debate if the layouts work or not, I'm sure they do. However, the length with hit is listed at 50x5x40. Neither the 50 drill angle or 5" p2p had been typically considered the standard for length before.Mo Pinel wrote: Interesting comment! The MOtion Hole on the Crux will move it's breakpoint down the lane, which will help it. That ball tends to hook much sooner and slightly less than the Guru. Sorry you find contradiction in the two layout systems. Necessity is the mother of invention. I learned a ton from the empirical layout study which resulted in the new generic asym. layouts. They do work. Comments here confirm that. I admit we only tested the new layouts with our balls (Radical). That's business. I am using them on other balls with people looking for recommendations. So far, so good. We keep learning, thank God! Keep texting.
What changed? Does p2p matter more for length than we thought on asyms? Is it adding length by slightly reducing flare? None of the above? Based on the research you keep pointing to, this DOES seem to be a bit bigger than just a simplification, unless I'm missing something.
All I'm really trying to say: you said you learned a lot from the empirical study... What is it you learned that led to the change in layouts? We like to learn too!
PAP- 4 1/8 over, 3/4 up
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12