That low tilt bowlers often like symmetricals better due to their longer hook zones.
With that being true why aren't layouts with higher VAL angles often recommended on assymetricals ?Many low tilt guys get 2:1 and 3:1 ratio recommendations.
I have tried the Reax 2 at 90/2.5/55, a Ruckus Feud at 80/3/55, and a Reax at 90/2.75/45 but I've always felt they were a little on the mellow side.
SO........now that I'm back in the swing of things I'm wondering if lowering the drill angle only but keeping the lower flare pin to PAP and higher VAL might match up better with my speed and delivery specs?????
Mo Has Said............
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- Member
- Posts: 502
- Joined: February 11th, 2011, 9:36 pm
- THS Average: 203
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 right x 1 up
- Speed: 20 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Preferred Company: Radical, Storm, Motiv
Mo Has Said............
Last edited by mattypizon on September 29th, 2014, 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Re: Mo Has Said............
You are lower tilt but with you being on speed dominant side you might want to use lower total sums and stronger pin-pap distance.
* MPH @ aarows
* RPM
AR *
AT *
PAP 3 3/4"
(* rebuilding)
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
* RPM
AR *
AT *
PAP 3 3/4"
(* rebuilding)
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
- deanchamp
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 455
- Joined: August 4th, 2010, 10:23 am
- THS Average: 220
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mo Has Said............
you have a few questions there. i haven't read Mo saying that anywhere, but with symmetrical balls, the reason a higher angle ratio is used is that drilled symmetrical balls lose tilt at a rate almost double the rate that asymmetrical balls lose tilt as both types of ball go down the lane, thus symmetrical balls roll earlier and smoother in the back-end just by the nature of the ball. if you lower the ratio by increasing the VAL angle you are in danger of having the ball lose tilt too soon. another issue with low tilt bowlers is that if they track near the fingers, increasing the VAL angle too much may cause the ball to flare over the finger holes.mattypizon wrote:That low tilt bowlers often like symmetricals better due to their longer hook zones.
With that being true why aren't layouts with higher VAL angles often recommended? Many low tilt guys get 2:1 and 3:1 ratio recommendations.
I have tried the Reax 2 at 90/2.5/55, a Ruckus Feud at 80/3/55, and a Reax at 90/2.75/45 but I've always felt they were a little on the mellow side.
SO........now that I'm back in the swing of things I'm wondering if lowering the drill angle only but keeping the lower flare pin to PAP and higher VAL might match up better with my speed and delivery specs?????
the balls you mentioned are all asymmetric balls, and the shorter pin to PAP distances were prob recommended to help preserve your tilt and give you some backend, but the large angle sums were prob for a THS to help you smooth out the wet/dry.
and here's a quote from Mo relating to your last question:
"VAL angles are far less significant with shorter pin to PAP distances. Just play on a ball and you'll see."
Dean
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
-
- Member
- Posts: 502
- Joined: February 11th, 2011, 9:36 pm
- THS Average: 203
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 right x 1 up
- Speed: 20 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 10
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Preferred Company: Radical, Storm, Motiv
Re: Mo Has Said............
I accidentally left out a very important word in my original post. I have since corrected it.
I was trying to tie that logic to asym layouts which is why I referenced the ones I've tried with higher VALs.
Sorry for the confusion.
I was trying to tie that logic to asym layouts which is why I referenced the ones I've tried with higher VALs.
Sorry for the confusion.
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up
- deanchamp
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 455
- Joined: August 4th, 2010, 10:23 am
- THS Average: 220
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mo Has Said............
When bowlers have low tilt, higher ratios are recommended to promote a longer first transition to make the most of the available axis tilt at the release. When low tilt is combined with high rotation, the ratio can be lower as the high rotation equates to more speed, which helps the ball get down the lane during the skid phase. But if there is low rotation and low tilt, the ratio will usually be higher.
With Symm balls, although they burn tilt and rotation faster, my theory is when you work out the true drilling angle on the ball once it is drilled using the thumb hole as the MB, the ratio will usually be higher, which helps compensate the burning off of the tilt due to the symm ball characteristics.
e.g. my PAP is 5 3/4 across and 1/4" up. If i use a 70° x 5” x 35° layout on a Symm ball (with the CG for the drill angle), the ratio is 2:1. But once the ball is drilled, using a MB of 1/2" negative of the centre and 6 3/4" from the pin, the drill angle is 85°, which is a ratio of 2.43:1. (there is also no balance hole to affect the drill angle).
Now this won't be the case for every bowler or layout, but it might explain Mo's statement to some degree.
I found this statement too from Mo, which may help clarify your question as well:
- Low tilt bowlers usually use more symmetricals than asymmetricals because symmetricals have longer hook zones delaying the ball entering the roll phase. Therefore, it gives them more continuation until the carry down gets them and they start leaving corner pins. At that point they should go to an asymmetrical because the asymm. will respond to the friction faster carrying the ten pin when the symmetrical will not on the carry down.
The lesson for low tilt bowlers is.......start with your symmetrical until you start leaving corners. Then, switch to your asymm. to carry the corner...................... Mo
With Symm balls, although they burn tilt and rotation faster, my theory is when you work out the true drilling angle on the ball once it is drilled using the thumb hole as the MB, the ratio will usually be higher, which helps compensate the burning off of the tilt due to the symm ball characteristics.
e.g. my PAP is 5 3/4 across and 1/4" up. If i use a 70° x 5” x 35° layout on a Symm ball (with the CG for the drill angle), the ratio is 2:1. But once the ball is drilled, using a MB of 1/2" negative of the centre and 6 3/4" from the pin, the drill angle is 85°, which is a ratio of 2.43:1. (there is also no balance hole to affect the drill angle).
Now this won't be the case for every bowler or layout, but it might explain Mo's statement to some degree.
I found this statement too from Mo, which may help clarify your question as well:
- Low tilt bowlers usually use more symmetricals than asymmetricals because symmetricals have longer hook zones delaying the ball entering the roll phase. Therefore, it gives them more continuation until the carry down gets them and they start leaving corner pins. At that point they should go to an asymmetrical because the asymm. will respond to the friction faster carrying the ten pin when the symmetrical will not on the carry down.
The lesson for low tilt bowlers is.......start with your symmetrical until you start leaving corners. Then, switch to your asymm. to carry the corner...................... Mo
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor