Board index » Mo & Friends » General Discussion


Forum rules


Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:09 am Post Number: #1 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
I just was looking for some clarity on this subject. Are drilling angles necessary when having a symmetric ball drilled? My curiosity arises because I recently started drilling my own equipment and nothing seems to be working like I think it should. Any help from anybody would be much appreciated.

Obviously I realize this will have effect on static weights. Question is more of will it effect skid phase even though psa will be in or near thumb. I am currently looking to drill some smaller drill angles as I am low tilt and high rotation.

Just trying to gain the knowledge.

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:50 pm Post Number: #2 Post
Offline
Trusted Source

Joined: January 30, 2010
Posts: 3201
Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN
Reputation: 247
Reputation Power: 3
For symmetrical balls the drilling angle is used only to determine the cg location for static weights, either for legality or to allow for weight holes. Whatever drilling angle you use the post-drilling MB will be about 6 1/2" from the pin and 1/2" left (for a rightie) of the grip centerline. -- JohnP


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:56 pm Post Number: #3 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
So with that said it will only alter static weights and not dictate ball motion? Except MB will be in weak position without balance hole correct?

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:30 pm Post Number: #4 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
Lledsmarttam wrote:
So with that said it will only alter static weights and not dictate ball motion? Except MB will be in weak position without balance hole correct?

Correct on both counts.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:52 am Post Number: #5 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Thanks again Eric.
That being said can you suggest a lay out for same ball?

Right handed
PAP 5.0625" over 3/4" up
16 mph monitor
300-325 rev
10-12* tilt
70-90* rotation

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:59 am Post Number: #6 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
Lledsmarttam wrote:
Thanks again Eric.
That being said can you suggest a lay out for same ball?

Right handed
PAP 5.0625" over 3/4" up
16 mph monitor
300-325 rev
10-12* tilt
70-90* rotation


Same ball? What ball are you referring to?
What kind of reaction are you looking for?
I always start by figuring the Benchmark and working from there.

Benchmark 90* Total, 1.5:1 Ratio

Basic arsenal.....
Asymmetrical
Totally Strong ....... 45-4.5-25
Midlane ............... 35-4.25-35
Benchmark .......... 55-4.25-35
Long and Strong ... 75-4.25-35
Control ................ 55-3.75-55
low flare .............. 75-2.25-35

Symmetrical
Totally Strong ....... Double Thumb
Midlane ............... 60-4-30 balance hole 1.5" below midline on the VAL
Benchmark .......... 60-4-30 P3
Long and Strong ... 80-4-30
Control ................ Pin in the Ring Finger
low flare .............. 75-5-30

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:55 am Post Number: #7 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Eric that's my bad. I thought was posting on other topic, motion holes, which you also answered some questions on. The ball(s) are Pyramid Pathogen-Pathogen X-and Curse. All new undrilled balls.

Also out of curiosity would it be possible I may need closer 1;1 ratio? I have been trying to use storms VLS to layohelp me with layout and is mostly giving me close to 1;1 on the lower diff balls and on higher diff balls closer to 1.2;1 ish.

I currently have pathogen x with motion hole and pathogen is 60x4.875x70. I do get a nice smooth ball reaction out of the Pathogen. If thrown slow enough works well.

I bowl on mostly THS and had one league last year that used White 2 pattern. I believe was 40-42ft if I'm not mistaken.

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:25 pm Post Number: #8 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
Well at least the VLS system is giving you layouts in your usable range.

The 1:1 ratios are for Control and Midlane layouts for your specs.

The Pathogen is basically low flare pin down layout. It makes total sense that you need to slow your speed for it to be effective. My Symmetrical low flare suggestion pin up will give you better results at your normal speed.

Curse .................. 60-4-30 P2 1000 grit, Benchmark
Pathogen ............. 70-4.25-55 balance hole 2" below midline on the VAL, Control, 2000 grit no polish
Pathogen X .......... 75-4.75-30, low flare, factory surface

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:07 am Post Number: #9 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
ERIC

Have you ever used VLS for layouts? If so how did they work out?

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:22 am Post Number: #10 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
Lledsmarttam wrote:
ERIC

Have you ever used VLS for layouts? If so how did they work out?

I downloaded it and only played with it to see what was about.

Never used it for giving recommendations because the dual angle system is more accurate. Using inputs like high med and low just isn't precise enough for me.

In fact my Norton antivirus removed it from my computer as being a threat. Never bothered to download it again and make an exception in Norton.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:47 am Post Number: #11 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
Well at least the VLS system is giving you layouts in your usable range.

The 1:1 ratios are for Control and Midlane layouts for your specs.

The Pathogen is basically low flare pin down layout. It makes total sense that you need to slow your speed for it to be effective. My Symmetrical low flare suggestion pin up will give you better results at your normal speed.

Curse .................. 60-4-30 P2 1000 grit, Benchmark
Pathogen ............. 70-4.25-55 balance hole 2" below midline on the VAL, Control, 2000 grit no polish
Pathogen X .......... 75-4.75-30, low flare, factory surface



When you say control you are talking about a smooth rolling ball. Like banana type hook?

Also I recently threw suggested layouts on pathogen and curse.
I like layout for pathogen as puts pin in ring finger (something I already had weitten down to try was 78x4.375x54)which also gets pin in ring. When I weigh it out predrill there is .825pos side weight and .4 thumb. Pin distance is only 2 7/8" and 3oz top weight according to box. Won't this hole 1.5" below the midline on Val be rather on the small side if necessary at all? Or is this required for said performance?

Also on the Curse same deal with pin length and puts cg to high for a P2 hole if I am laying out gradient line system correctly. It puts P2 on midline. On that ball weighs out at 1.1oz finger and 1oz pos side. Won't I have to drill finger holes deeper to ball legal? Will this effect reaction?

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:21 pm Post Number: #12 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
To achieve the lower ratio of the Control the balance hole is needed to lower the Drill angle.
Ideally you want to get the balance hole the same size as your thumb hole to pull the PSA to a point half way between between the holes.

On the Curse move the balance hole up the VAL just enough to make it completely above the midline. Drilling the balance hole shallow will have less effect to the ball reaction. Drilling the middle finger deeper is an option and will reduce the flare a little, but not so much that the layout won't still be effective.
Roll the ball first, if you want it stronger drill both fingers deeper and add a P3 hole.

Remember smaller and deeper has more affect than a big shallow hole.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:49 pm Post Number: #13 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
To achieve the lower ratio of the Control the balance hole is needed to lower the Drill angle.
Ideally you want to get the balance hole the same size as your thumb hole to pull the PSA to a point half way between between the holes.

On the Curse move the balance hole up the VAL just enough to make it completely above the midline. Drilling the balance hole shallow will have less effect to the ball reaction. Drilling the middle finger deeper is an option and will reduce the flare a little, but not so much that the layout won't still be effective.
Roll the ball first, if you want it stronger drill both fingers deeper and add a P3 hole.

Remember smaller and deeper has more affect than a big shallow hole.



Thanks for the suggestions!! I am going to punch up the pathogen with control layout first. I will let you know how it goes.

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:05 am Post Number: #14 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
Well at least the VLS system is giving you layouts in your usable range.

The 1:1 ratios are for Control and Midlane layouts for your specs.

The Pathogen is basically low flare pin down layout. It makes total sense that you need to slow your speed for it to be effective. My Symmetrical low flare suggestion pin up will give you better results at your normal speed.

Curse .................. 60-4-30 P2 1000 grit, Benchmark
Pathogen ............. 70-4.25-55 balance hole 2" below midline on the VAL, Control, 2000 grit no polish
Pathogen X .......... 75-4.75-30, low flare, factory surface



I drilled up Pathogen with suggested layout and phole. Phole is same size and depth as thumb. Ended up at .4oz finger -.375oz side .5oz bottom. Hopefully get a chance to roll it this weekend. Thanks for your suggestion.

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:30 pm Post Number: #15 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
I bowled with Pathogen with suggested layout. Shot was 1.5 days old and been bowled on by a league but I loved it. Very nice and smooth but with tons of hitting power! Left at OOB finish for now. Will play with surface if needed. Thanks Eric.

Now as the Curse goes how will that layout be different in length, hook etc. want to do that one next. Also what about suggested Pathogen X? Differences in ball reaction?

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:50 am Post Number: #16 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
Lledsmarttam wrote:
I bowled with Pathogen with suggested layout. Shot was 1.5 days old and been bowled on by a league but I loved it. Very nice and smooth but with tons of hitting power! Left at OOB finish for now. Will play with surface if needed. Thanks Eric.

Now as the Curse goes how will that layout be different in length, hook etc. want to do that one next. Also what about suggested Pathogen X? Differences in ball reaction?

I am curious to know how the new Pathogen compared to your old one.

The Curse will read the lane earlier and react faster than the Pathogen. My recommendation is to also use a dull surface on it for oilier conditions.

The Pathogen X will be longer with a more angular shape than the Pathogen.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:58 pm Post Number: #17 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
[quote="EricHartwell"
I am curious to know how the new Pathogen compared to your old one.

The Curse will read the lane earlier and react faster than the Pathogen. My recommendation is to also use a dull surface on it for oilier conditions.

The Pathogen X will be longer with a more angular shape than the Pathogen.[/quote]


I was able to play much straighter with the new one. I played around 13 and break point was around 5. I was also able to throw my normal speed. I almost would call this a benchmark type reaction for me. I seem to be much more comfortable blaming straighter lines than swinging across the pattern.

I did not throw the older one at all that session but when I did use it I need to play between 15-20 and out to about 8 with slower speed.

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:55 pm Post Number: #18 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
On the Curse I Was thinking of shortening pin to PAP distance to 3.5 and changing drill angle to 70 to get closer to legal static weights so if I like reaction don't NEED phole. Or would doing 3.5" pin and increasing Val angle be better? Will this alter reaction to much?

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:36 pm Post Number: #19 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
Lledsmarttam wrote:
On the Curse I Was thinking of shortening pin to PAP distance to 3.5 and changing drill angle to 70 to get closer to legal static weights so if I like reaction don't NEED phole. Or would doing 3.5" pin and increasing Val angle be better? Will this alter reaction to much?

The pin to Cg on the Curse is not optimal to make the layout stronger. To make the layout less dependent on the need for a balance hole and push the drilling angle to the Cg larger is fine.

Shortening the Pin to PAP will make the hook shape More angular and get the ball to roll sooner.
The worry in doing this is you have low tilt and the shorter pin to PAP burns that tilt off faster and will reduce the tilt to zero and at that point carry percentage starts to go down.
If you were to make the VAL angle larger as you suggest, the hook shape then would get longer and smoother making it a Control layout.

If you find a need for a ball stronger than the Curse then get something with a longer pin to Cg distance to be able to utilize a strong balance hole.
To round out your set on the Stronger side a ball with a stronger coverstock would be a good idea.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Do sym drillings ever need a specific drill angle?
 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:57 pm Post Number: #20 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 63
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
The pin to Cg on the Curse is not optimal to make the layout stronger. To make the layout less dependent on the need for a balance hole and push the drilling angle to the Cg larger is fine.

Shortening the Pin to PAP will make the hook shape More angular and get the ball to roll sooner.
The worry in doing this is you have low tilt and the shorter pin to PAP burns that tilt off faster and will reduce the tilt to zero and at that point carry percentage starts to go down.
If you were to make the VAL angle larger as you suggest, the hook shape then would get longer and smoother making it a Control layout.

If you find a need for a ball stronger than the Curse then get something with a longer pin to Cg distance to be able to utilize a strong balance hole.
To round out your set on the Stronger side a ball with a stronger coverstock would be a good idea.


Ok Eric, if I understand correctly you said from earlier posts and this one if I drill it 60x4x30 and just drill fingers deep enough to be legal for f/t weight then drill ring deeper for side weight that will keep reaction as described previously? Without the phole?

Also I noticed from your original arsenal suggestion that you said 60x4x30 w p-3 hole and after I gave you which ball this changed to p2. Is theirs a typo or intended change?

Also is there a specific ball with stronger cover you would recommend?

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Last edited by Lledsmarttam on Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » Mo & Friends » General Discussion


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: