Shame
Moderator: Moderators
- scotts33
- Member
- Posts: 802
- Joined: August 13th, 2009, 12:30 pm
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8" > 3/8" up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 325
- Axis Tilt: 17
- Axis Rotation: 60
- Heavy Oil Ball: Motiv T10 LE 60* 4" 60* no hole symm. OOB pin down
- Location: Madison, WI
Shame
It's a down right shame that this forum doesn't get used more. It's one of the better constructed user friendly bowling forums out there and well moderated. To bad!
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: Shame
Sorry Scott.
Word of mouth is all we got.
Feel free to promote.
Word of mouth is all we got.
Feel free to promote.
- Maine Man
- Member
- Posts: 58
- Joined: November 30th, 2009, 4:02 pm
- THS Average: 229
- Sport Average: 215
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" x 3/16" up
- Speed: 16.5 (Release)
- Rev Rate: 335
- Axis Tilt: 23
- Axis Rotation: 65
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Results Solid
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Incognito Pearl
- Light Oil Ball: Radical Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: Maine
Re: Shame
I just registered, look out boys!!!!!!
James Goulding
Moore's Pro Shop
Radical Staff
Speed: 16.5
RPM: 335
Tilt: 23*
Rotation: 65*
PAP: 4 1/2* x 3/16* (up)
Left Handed
Moore's Pro Shop
Radical Staff
Speed: 16.5
RPM: 335
Tilt: 23*
Rotation: 65*
PAP: 4 1/2* x 3/16* (up)
Left Handed
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: Shame
Oh boy...Maine Man wrote:I just registered, look out boys!!!!!!
God help us all.
Re: Shame
It is well constructed and moderated, but for those of us that appreciate objectivity..well there is way too much Mo worship & influence here for much objectivity to exist. That is the real shame.scotts33 wrote:It's a down right shame that this forum doesn't get used more. It's one of the better constructed user friendly bowling forums out there and well moderated. To bad!
Lee
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: Shame
If understanding what hes done for the sport of bowling, knowing how hard hes worked to get where he is and recognizing him as a leader of developing systems bowling needs desperately, not to mention seeing all of the positive stories and results people get with his knowledge, then yes call me a worshiper and a believer.7966969 wrote: It is well constructed and moderated, but for those of us that appreciate objectivity..well there is way too much Mo worship & influence here for much objectivity to exist. That is the real shame.
Lee
If objectivity is every Tom, Dick and Harry has an opinion with no viable credibility, there are plenty of other bowling websites for that. Here we have credibility from the game's best.
Lee, tell me how this website can be better.
Constrictive criticism is accepted here.
- scotts33
- Member
- Posts: 802
- Joined: August 13th, 2009, 12:30 pm
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8" > 3/8" up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 325
- Axis Tilt: 17
- Axis Rotation: 60
- Heavy Oil Ball: Motiv T10 LE 60* 4" 60* no hole symm. OOB pin down
- Location: Madison, WI
Re: Shame
Since, I started this thread just shy of 2 years ago. (Fri Nov 20, 2009) Things have changed and the site is much more used today than it was back then.
Well done Eric!
Scott
Well done Eric!
Scott
- Mo Pinel
- Rest In Peace
- Posts: 10054
- Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
- Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
- Location: Richmond, VA
Re: Shame
You are entitled to your opinion and have the right to express it in the USA. If passion and intelligence and a rational approach to this sport offends you, so be it. There are lots of people who sit on the sidelines and criticize the work that's being done. You may be one of them. What is your reputation count? Au revoir, monsieur.7966969 wrote: It is well constructed and moderated, but for those of us that appreciate objectivity..well there is way too much Mo worship & influence here for much objectivity to exist. That is the real shame.
Lee
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
- kellytehuna
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2891
- Joined: January 18th, 2010, 11:11 pm
- THS Average: 195
- Positive Axis Point: 3.75", 1" up
- Speed: 18
- Rev Rate: 480
- Axis Tilt: 17
- Axis Rotation: 40
- Heavy Oil Ball: Morich DestroyR
- Medium Oil Ball: Morich Perpetual Motion
- Light Oil Ball: Morich Mojave
- Preferred Company: Morich
- Location: Hazard, KY
Re: Shame
I, for one, am not ashamed that I'm a believer in what Mo does. Considering how often Mr. Pinel has played a pivotal, often unsung part in some of the key innovations in modern bowlings recent history (Pin out balls, PSA development, successful flaring balls, some of the MOST successful balls and cores of all time), one would be somewhat arrogant to say he is not worthy of at least a little idolization, don't you think7966969 wrote: It is well constructed and moderated, but for those of us that appreciate objectivity..well there is way too much Mo worship & influence here for much objectivity to exist. That is the real shame.
Lee
Reading the success stories produced by Mr. Pinel ALONE, it's hard to deny that what he teaches not only works, but it's not the smoke and mirrors ball layouts have been made out to be. It really is a case of buying in to the system and following the process.
Father, Husband, Bowler, Web developer
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 3432
- Joined: January 31st, 2010, 1:04 am
- Positive Axis Point: 15 15/16 x 3/16
- Speed: 13.5 (Qubica)
- Axis Tilt: 13
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN
Re: Shame
Mo has taken much of the "witchcraft" out of ball drilling and given us a system that matches layouts to the customer's style. What have you done? -- JohnP
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: January 18th, 2010, 9:21 pm
Re: Shame
If Mo is not the most knowledgeable person in the sport of bowling, I don't know who is. And if there is someone even close, are they willing to be available day and night to answer us one on one. If you know of such a person, let us know would you. We have all visited the other sites that we are aware of and that is why we are here so much of our time.
I do agree with you that Eric is doing a great job.
I do agree with you that Eric is doing a great job.
- jbungard
- Rest In Peace
- Posts: 203
- Joined: January 25th, 2010, 7:08 pm
- THS Average: 209
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/4" over, 3/8" up
- Speed: 17 foul line, 15 pindeck
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 13
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Ridiculous Asymetrical
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Guru Limited
- Light Oil Ball: Radical Rack Attack Solid
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: Festival Ranch, Arizona
Re: Shame
Lee,7966969 wrote: It is well constructed and moderated, but for those of us that appreciate objectivity..well there is way too much Mo worship & influence here for much objectivity to exist. That is the real shame.
Lee
I've never met Mo Pinel but place a high value on what I've learned from Mo and many others on this site in the past few years. I've drilled balls from time to time since 1974 but have achieved the most clarity and understanding of techniques that actually work since learning and implementing the dual angle layout and gradient line balance hole systems. Prior to using these systems, I had pretty good success (and some not so successful) in providing layouts for customers, friends and myself. Since implementing these tools, every ball I've drilled has met my objective and my customers/friends needs. Spending time with the bowler is key: Determining their PAP, rev rate, axis tilt and rotation, what other equipment they have and how it is drilled, surfaces used, and what they want their new piece to do and where it fits in their arsenal. I've always done things in a systematic way and the use of dual angle layouts and gradient line balance holes just helped me take this to a new level. For that, I have great respect for Mo Pinel and everyone else who contributes to a better understanding of our sport and its tools. But life and bowling are not zero sum games. There are many in the industry that I also have respect for.
To me, objectivity is one of the great strengths of this site. Opinions are challenged. "Facts" are challenged to ensure they really are facts or, in some cases, long-held beliefs that are not facts.
I'd ask you to spend additional time looking through the posts, the wiki and other information freely shared on this site. Bring an open mind and positive attitude and I guarantee you'll learn something that will be of benefit to you. I have
... and, yes, Eric continues to do a great job in moderating and managing this site!
Re: Shame
I was attracted to this thread because I noticed the last poster was jbungard. I generally find his posts to be well worth reading.
I'd substitute the word "respect" in lieu of "worship". If there is too much Mo influence, one major reason might be because no other industry professional lends his influence to this forum anywhere near as much. He has certainly been a difference maker and agent for positive change.
I'd like to give another shout out to Jim Merrell for the luster he adds to this gem of a forum.
Jim's like the man playing the clarinet in the Joni Mitchell song.
http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=115" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ditto the Kudos to Eric who keeps this neighborhood a nice place to be.
I'd substitute the word "respect" in lieu of "worship". If there is too much Mo influence, one major reason might be because no other industry professional lends his influence to this forum anywhere near as much. He has certainly been a difference maker and agent for positive change.
I'd like to give another shout out to Jim Merrell for the luster he adds to this gem of a forum.
Jim's like the man playing the clarinet in the Joni Mitchell song.
http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=115" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ditto the Kudos to Eric who keeps this neighborhood a nice place to be.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
- Mo Pinel
- Rest In Peace
- Posts: 10054
- Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
- Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
- Location: Richmond, VA
Re: Shame
kajmk wrote:I was attracted to this thread because I noticed the last poster was jbungard. I generally find his posts to be well worth reading.
I'd substitute the word "respect" in lieu of "worship". If there is too much Mo influence, one major reason might be because no other industry professional lends his influence to this forum anywhere near as much. He has certainly been a difference maker and agent for positive change.
I'd like to give another shout out to Jim Merrell for the luster he adds to this gem of a forum.
Jim's like the man playing the clarinet in the Joni Mitchell song.
http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=115" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ditto the Kudos to Eric who keeps this neighborhood a nice place to be.
I really like being here with Jim and Eric and ALL the other solid contributors. I view it as a team.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
-
- Member
- Posts: 288
- Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:46 am
- Location: Winston Salem, NC
- Contact:
Re: Shame
I agree that respect is a far better word to be used. The BowlingChat site is not a suburb of Morich.com, there are other industry professionals and coaches that show up to provide information and support. I know that people from other ball lines (Storm/Roto jumps to mind immediately) show up here when their products are mentioned. You have Ballspinner who will be glad to answer any questions or address any issues with their products - how's that for customer support? You have multiple Bronze and Silver Level coaches willing to provide video analysis to improve your game for the cost of having your game put out there for the world to see. You have people passionate about the sport and are willing to debate ideas and possible changes that would improve the longevity of the sport. You get encouragement, information, and feedback for all levels of bowling.
Why is this? I believe that it is because of respect. The site administration respects those who provide their time and talents to the bowling community. I dare say that we have many of these coaches and professionals come by because they respect and appreciate the efforts and achievements of Mo, but I think they stay because of the thirst of the community that we have. Mo has a very strong personality, and there are those who are put off by it. I dare say that it is their loss, simply because the information that he provides is based on research and actual physics, with the help of PurduePaul and MathIsTruth - he's not just bringing a subjective "experience" factor that can cloud a discussion.
Having said that, yes Mo is the constant that can be found here. Does that mean that he's the only voice here? Not at all. Are there other philosophies, both in ball layouts, maintenance, and coaching -- Yes. But as an old addage says "The proof is in the pudding." Based on the sheer number of people who have taken his advice (again, freely given) and improved many aspects of their game - and their enjoyment of the game, I'd think that to discount the site as a haven for Mo Pinel-ites is to shortchange a significant resource.
(I hope kajmk will forgive my lack of brevity )
Why is this? I believe that it is because of respect. The site administration respects those who provide their time and talents to the bowling community. I dare say that we have many of these coaches and professionals come by because they respect and appreciate the efforts and achievements of Mo, but I think they stay because of the thirst of the community that we have. Mo has a very strong personality, and there are those who are put off by it. I dare say that it is their loss, simply because the information that he provides is based on research and actual physics, with the help of PurduePaul and MathIsTruth - he's not just bringing a subjective "experience" factor that can cloud a discussion.
Having said that, yes Mo is the constant that can be found here. Does that mean that he's the only voice here? Not at all. Are there other philosophies, both in ball layouts, maintenance, and coaching -- Yes. But as an old addage says "The proof is in the pudding." Based on the sheer number of people who have taken his advice (again, freely given) and improved many aspects of their game - and their enjoyment of the game, I'd think that to discount the site as a haven for Mo Pinel-ites is to shortchange a significant resource.
(I hope kajmk will forgive my lack of brevity )
Back into Blogging: http://lifeasjasonharris.blogspot.com/ 80% Bowling, 100% me. (oh hold while working on several other projects -- sorry)
The Gathering 2k16, Winston Salem, NC, July 29-31. Just ask me for more info.
The Gathering 2k16, Winston Salem, NC, July 29-31. Just ask me for more info.
Re: Shame
" (I hope kajmk will forgive my lack of brevity ) "
Au contraire Graaille, I thank you for the well worded informative post.
Thanks for giving credit where it is due. There's little doubt in the quality information conveyed by the folk behind the screen names you applauded and perhaps more.
Au contraire Graaille, I thank you for the well worded informative post.
Thanks for giving credit where it is due. There's little doubt in the quality information conveyed by the folk behind the screen names you applauded and perhaps more.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
Re: Shame
You are entitled to your opinion and have the right to express it in the USA. If passion and intelligence and a rational approach to this sport offends you, so be it. There are lots of people who sit on the sidelines and criticize the work that's being done. You may be one of them. What is your reputation count? Au revoir, monsieur.[/quote]
Pretty much the response I'd expect from you.
I like the passion / desire for knowledge and applaud your constant willingness to share such with others. I visit this site to increase my knowledge and understanding..and yes, some of that knowledge / understanding has to be credited to your efforts.
I'm not criticizing as much as simply acknowledging what is often the elephant in the room on this site..too many people are afraid to express their individual opinions, ideas, and experiences for fear it will be shot down,belittled, disproven,etc., if they don't line up with your opinions / findings. That's the shame, I referred to.
Guess, I better return to my rightful place of sitting on the sidelines with my worthless reputation.
Pretty much the response I'd expect from you.
I like the passion / desire for knowledge and applaud your constant willingness to share such with others. I visit this site to increase my knowledge and understanding..and yes, some of that knowledge / understanding has to be credited to your efforts.
I'm not criticizing as much as simply acknowledging what is often the elephant in the room on this site..too many people are afraid to express their individual opinions, ideas, and experiences for fear it will be shot down,belittled, disproven,etc., if they don't line up with your opinions / findings. That's the shame, I referred to.
Guess, I better return to my rightful place of sitting on the sidelines with my worthless reputation.
-
- Member
- Posts: 288
- Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:46 am
- Location: Winston Salem, NC
- Contact:
Re: Shame
It really is ok to express an opinion and experience, believe it or not. Opinions are by their very nature Subjective. The times I've seen (read) where an opinion gets called into question is when it was being presented as a fact. It (whatever "it" may be) may be a truism in certain cases "Where I bowl...", but when you've got years of data and replicate-able results across a wide variety of scenarios, what may be true in one house might be an anomaly across 99% of the centers in the World.
I know there are several instances where opinions have been voiced on multiple sides of an issue, and there have been an "agree to disagree" after the dust cleared. However those discussions were about subjective issues -- not about things that there have been major studies about. Now not everyone has the background that Mo/PurduePaul/MathIsTruth/etc.... have in dealing with ball manufacturing, motion studies, surface studies, and core dynamics. That's ok. But unless its a company secret, ask about something and they will provide the data that backs up their positions. You may or may not know that Mo was invited to and subsequently banned from another site because he disagreed with the "facts" as that site espoused them. The problem was that Mo had (has) the data to back up his assertions. Provide data that can be duplicated that challenges what we have here -- and it will be tested, and if the test confirms your assertion - we will all learn something.
The elephant doesn't belong in the room, it belongs in the plains, and the proverbial golden cow belongs on a plate with a potato and salad.
One more thing -- Reputation is not a punishment, nor a reward -- for most it's an "I Agree with you" or it's an "I Disagree with what you said, or perhaps how you said it." It's not the end of the world, and you're not getting voted off the island. Once the air is clear, the thread will be locked, and life will go on. I will say I appreciate the fact that you came back to clarify your position instead of pulling a seagull -- flys in, makes a lot of noise, s***s on everything, then flies away.
I know there are several instances where opinions have been voiced on multiple sides of an issue, and there have been an "agree to disagree" after the dust cleared. However those discussions were about subjective issues -- not about things that there have been major studies about. Now not everyone has the background that Mo/PurduePaul/MathIsTruth/etc.... have in dealing with ball manufacturing, motion studies, surface studies, and core dynamics. That's ok. But unless its a company secret, ask about something and they will provide the data that backs up their positions. You may or may not know that Mo was invited to and subsequently banned from another site because he disagreed with the "facts" as that site espoused them. The problem was that Mo had (has) the data to back up his assertions. Provide data that can be duplicated that challenges what we have here -- and it will be tested, and if the test confirms your assertion - we will all learn something.
The elephant doesn't belong in the room, it belongs in the plains, and the proverbial golden cow belongs on a plate with a potato and salad.
One more thing -- Reputation is not a punishment, nor a reward -- for most it's an "I Agree with you" or it's an "I Disagree with what you said, or perhaps how you said it." It's not the end of the world, and you're not getting voted off the island. Once the air is clear, the thread will be locked, and life will go on. I will say I appreciate the fact that you came back to clarify your position instead of pulling a seagull -- flys in, makes a lot of noise, s***s on everything, then flies away.
Back into Blogging: http://lifeasjasonharris.blogspot.com/ 80% Bowling, 100% me. (oh hold while working on several other projects -- sorry)
The Gathering 2k16, Winston Salem, NC, July 29-31. Just ask me for more info.
The Gathering 2k16, Winston Salem, NC, July 29-31. Just ask me for more info.
- kellytehuna
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2891
- Joined: January 18th, 2010, 11:11 pm
- THS Average: 195
- Positive Axis Point: 3.75", 1" up
- Speed: 18
- Rev Rate: 480
- Axis Tilt: 17
- Axis Rotation: 40
- Heavy Oil Ball: Morich DestroyR
- Medium Oil Ball: Morich Perpetual Motion
- Light Oil Ball: Morich Mojave
- Preferred Company: Morich
- Location: Hazard, KY
Re: Shame
The problem is not that you disagree. If it had been a simple disagreement, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have received the "bad reputation" points you did. It was that you basically stated the entire membership is basically here to massage Mr. Pinel's ego and follow his teachings like the blind sheep we apparently are.7966969 wrote:
Pretty much the response I'd expect from you.
I like the passion / desire for knowledge and applaud your constant willingness to share such with others. I visit this site to increase my knowledge and understanding..and yes, some of that knowledge / understanding has to be credited to your efforts.
I'm not criticizing as much as simply acknowledging what is often the elephant in the room on this site..too many people are afraid to express their individual opinions, ideas, and experiences for fear it will be shot down,belittled, disproven,etc., if they don't line up with your opinions / findings. That's the shame, I referred to.
Guess, I better return to my rightful place of sitting on the sidelines with my worthless reputation.
If you take the time to read through the material, you will find that there are a multitude of conversations that directly contest points Mr. Pinel has made here and elsewhere. At these junctures, Mr. Pinel and/or Mr. Freshour (MathIsTruth) and occasionally, Mr. Ridenour provide documented proof from the many lengthy studies they've conducted supporting their findings.
It's hard to argue hard documented proof of one's position. Especially when the vast majority of the results have been independently verified by other reputable members of bowling's intelligentia.
Father, Husband, Bowler, Web developer
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
- cgeorg
- Member
- Posts: 158
- Joined: January 29th, 2010, 8:08 pm
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 x 1/2
- Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Re: Shame
This is generally the case, but the presentation of "facts" without evidence has been made by even folks with very high reputation on this site.kellytehuna wrote:If you take the time to read through the material, you will find that there are a multitude of conversations that directly contest points Mr. Pinel has made here and elsewhere. At these junctures, Mr. Pinel and/or Mr. Freshour (MathIsTruth) and occasionally, Mr. Ridenour provide documented proof from the many lengthy studies they've conducted supporting their findings.