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scotts33
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Shame

Post by scotts33 »

It's a down right shame that this forum doesn't get used more. It's one of the better constructed user friendly bowling forums out there and well moderated. To bad! :cry:
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Re: Shame

Post by MegaMav »

Sorry Scott.
Word of mouth is all we got.

Feel free to promote. :mrgreen:
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Re: Shame

Post by Maine Man »

I just registered, look out boys!!!!!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Shame

Post by MegaMav »

Maine Man wrote:I just registered, look out boys!!!!!! :mrgreen:
Oh boy...
God help us all.
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Re: Shame

Post by 7966969 »

scotts33 wrote:It's a down right shame that this forum doesn't get used more. It's one of the better constructed user friendly bowling forums out there and well moderated. To bad! :cry:
It is well constructed and moderated, but for those of us that appreciate objectivity..well there is way too much Mo worship & influence here for much objectivity to exist. That is the real shame.
Lee
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Re: Shame

Post by MegaMav »

7966969 wrote: It is well constructed and moderated, but for those of us that appreciate objectivity..well there is way too much Mo worship & influence here for much objectivity to exist. That is the real shame.
Lee
If understanding what hes done for the sport of bowling, knowing how hard hes worked to get where he is and recognizing him as a leader of developing systems bowling needs desperately, not to mention seeing all of the positive stories and results people get with his knowledge, then yes call me a worshiper and a believer.

If objectivity is every Tom, Dick and Harry has an opinion with no viable credibility, there are plenty of other bowling websites for that. Here we have credibility from the game's best.

Lee, tell me how this website can be better.
Constrictive criticism is accepted here.
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Re: Shame

Post by scotts33 »

Since, I started this thread just shy of 2 years ago. (Fri Nov 20, 2009) Things have changed and the site is much more used today than it was back then.

Well done Eric!

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Re: Shame

Post by Mo Pinel »

7966969 wrote: It is well constructed and moderated, but for those of us that appreciate objectivity..well there is way too much Mo worship & influence here for much objectivity to exist. That is the real shame.
Lee
You are entitled to your opinion and have the right to express it in the USA. If passion and intelligence and a rational approach to this sport offends you, so be it. There are lots of people who sit on the sidelines and criticize the work that's being done. You may be one of them. What is your reputation count? Au revoir, monsieur.
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Re: Shame

Post by kellytehuna »

7966969 wrote: It is well constructed and moderated, but for those of us that appreciate objectivity..well there is way too much Mo worship & influence here for much objectivity to exist. That is the real shame.
Lee
I, for one, am not ashamed that I'm a believer in what Mo does. Considering how often Mr. Pinel has played a pivotal, often unsung part in some of the key innovations in modern bowlings recent history (Pin out balls, PSA development, successful flaring balls, some of the MOST successful balls and cores of all time), one would be somewhat arrogant to say he is not worthy of at least a little idolization, don't you think ;)

Reading the success stories produced by Mr. Pinel ALONE, it's hard to deny that what he teaches not only works, but it's not the smoke and mirrors ball layouts have been made out to be. It really is a case of buying in to the system and following the process.
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Re: Shame

Post by JohnP »

Mo has taken much of the "witchcraft" out of ball drilling and given us a system that matches layouts to the customer's style. What have you done? -- JohnP
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Re: Shame

Post by elgavachon »

If Mo is not the most knowledgeable person in the sport of bowling, I don't know who is. And if there is someone even close, are they willing to be available day and night to answer us one on one. If you know of such a person, let us know would you. We have all visited the other sites that we are aware of and that is why we are here so much of our time.
I do agree with you that Eric is doing a great job.
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Re: Shame

Post by jbungard »

7966969 wrote: It is well constructed and moderated, but for those of us that appreciate objectivity..well there is way too much Mo worship & influence here for much objectivity to exist. That is the real shame.
Lee
Lee,

I've never met Mo Pinel but place a high value on what I've learned from Mo and many others on this site in the past few years. I've drilled balls from time to time since 1974 but have achieved the most clarity and understanding of techniques that actually work since learning and implementing the dual angle layout and gradient line balance hole systems. Prior to using these systems, I had pretty good success (and some not so successful) in providing layouts for customers, friends and myself. Since implementing these tools, every ball I've drilled has met my objective and my customers/friends needs. Spending time with the bowler is key: Determining their PAP, rev rate, axis tilt and rotation, what other equipment they have and how it is drilled, surfaces used, and what they want their new piece to do and where it fits in their arsenal. I've always done things in a systematic way and the use of dual angle layouts and gradient line balance holes just helped me take this to a new level. For that, I have great respect for Mo Pinel and everyone else who contributes to a better understanding of our sport and its tools. But life and bowling are not zero sum games. There are many in the industry that I also have respect for.

To me, objectivity is one of the great strengths of this site. Opinions are challenged. "Facts" are challenged to ensure they really are facts or, in some cases, long-held beliefs that are not facts.

I'd ask you to spend additional time looking through the posts, the wiki and other information freely shared on this site. Bring an open mind and positive attitude and I guarantee you'll learn something that will be of benefit to you. I have ;)

... and, yes, Eric continues to do a great job in moderating and managing this site!
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Re: Shame

Post by kajmk »

I was attracted to this thread because I noticed the last poster was jbungard. I generally find his posts to be well worth reading.

I'd substitute the word "respect" in lieu of "worship". If there is too much Mo influence, one major reason might be because no other industry professional lends his influence to this forum anywhere near as much. He has certainly been a difference maker and agent for positive change.

I'd like to give another shout out to Jim Merrell for the luster he adds to this gem of a forum.
Jim's like the man playing the clarinet in the Joni Mitchell song.
http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=115" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ditto the Kudos to Eric who keeps this neighborhood a nice place to be.
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Re: Shame

Post by Mo Pinel »

kajmk wrote:I was attracted to this thread because I noticed the last poster was jbungard. I generally find his posts to be well worth reading.

I'd substitute the word "respect" in lieu of "worship". If there is too much Mo influence, one major reason might be because no other industry professional lends his influence to this forum anywhere near as much. He has certainly been a difference maker and agent for positive change.

I'd like to give another shout out to Jim Merrell for the luster he adds to this gem of a forum.
Jim's like the man playing the clarinet in the Joni Mitchell song.
http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=115" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ditto the Kudos to Eric who keeps this neighborhood a nice place to be.

I really like being here with Jim and Eric and ALL the other solid contributors. I view it as a team.
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Re: Shame

Post by Graaille »

I agree that respect is a far better word to be used. The BowlingChat site is not a suburb of Morich.com, there are other industry professionals and coaches that show up to provide information and support. I know that people from other ball lines (Storm/Roto jumps to mind immediately) show up here when their products are mentioned. You have Ballspinner who will be glad to answer any questions or address any issues with their products - how's that for customer support? You have multiple Bronze and Silver Level coaches willing to provide video analysis to improve your game for the cost of having your game put out there for the world to see. You have people passionate about the sport and are willing to debate ideas and possible changes that would improve the longevity of the sport. You get encouragement, information, and feedback for all levels of bowling.

Why is this? I believe that it is because of respect. The site administration respects those who provide their time and talents to the bowling community. I dare say that we have many of these coaches and professionals come by because they respect and appreciate the efforts and achievements of Mo, but I think they stay because of the thirst of the community that we have. Mo has a very strong personality, and there are those who are put off by it. I dare say that it is their loss, simply because the information that he provides is based on research and actual physics, with the help of PurduePaul and MathIsTruth - he's not just bringing a subjective "experience" factor that can cloud a discussion.


Having said that, yes Mo is the constant that can be found here. Does that mean that he's the only voice here? Not at all. Are there other philosophies, both in ball layouts, maintenance, and coaching -- Yes. But as an old addage says "The proof is in the pudding." Based on the sheer number of people who have taken his advice (again, freely given) and improved many aspects of their game - and their enjoyment of the game, I'd think that to discount the site as a haven for Mo Pinel-ites is to shortchange a significant resource.

(I hope kajmk will forgive my lack of brevity ;) )
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Re: Shame

Post by kajmk »

" (I hope kajmk will forgive my lack of brevity ;) ) "


Au contraire Graaille, I thank you for the well worded informative post.
Thanks for giving credit where it is due. There's little doubt in the quality information conveyed by the folk behind the screen names you applauded and perhaps more.
:)
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Re: Shame

Post by 7966969 »

You are entitled to your opinion and have the right to express it in the USA. If passion and intelligence and a rational approach to this sport offends you, so be it. There are lots of people who sit on the sidelines and criticize the work that's being done. You may be one of them. What is your reputation count? Au revoir, monsieur.[/quote]

Pretty much the response I'd expect from you.
I like the passion / desire for knowledge and applaud your constant willingness to share such with others. I visit this site to increase my knowledge and understanding..and yes, some of that knowledge / understanding has to be credited to your efforts.
I'm not criticizing as much as simply acknowledging what is often the elephant in the room on this site..too many people are afraid to express their individual opinions, ideas, and experiences for fear it will be shot down,belittled, disproven,etc., if they don't line up with your opinions / findings. That's the shame, I referred to.
Guess, I better return to my rightful place of sitting on the sidelines with my worthless reputation.
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Re: Shame

Post by Graaille »

It really is ok to express an opinion and experience, believe it or not. Opinions are by their very nature Subjective. The times I've seen (read) where an opinion gets called into question is when it was being presented as a fact. It (whatever "it" may be) may be a truism in certain cases "Where I bowl...", but when you've got years of data and replicate-able results across a wide variety of scenarios, what may be true in one house might be an anomaly across 99% of the centers in the World.

I know there are several instances where opinions have been voiced on multiple sides of an issue, and there have been an "agree to disagree" after the dust cleared. However those discussions were about subjective issues -- not about things that there have been major studies about. Now not everyone has the background that Mo/PurduePaul/MathIsTruth/etc.... have in dealing with ball manufacturing, motion studies, surface studies, and core dynamics. That's ok. But unless its a company secret, ask about something and they will provide the data that backs up their positions. You may or may not know that Mo was invited to and subsequently banned from another site because he disagreed with the "facts" as that site espoused them. The problem was that Mo had (has) the data to back up his assertions. Provide data that can be duplicated that challenges what we have here -- and it will be tested, and if the test confirms your assertion - we will all learn something.

The elephant doesn't belong in the room, it belongs in the plains, and the proverbial golden cow belongs on a plate with a potato and salad.

One more thing -- Reputation is not a punishment, nor a reward -- for most it's an "I Agree with you" or it's an "I Disagree with what you said, or perhaps how you said it." It's not the end of the world, and you're not getting voted off the island. Once the air is clear, the thread will be locked, and life will go on. I will say I appreciate the fact that you came back to clarify your position instead of pulling a seagull -- flys in, makes a lot of noise, s***s on everything, then flies away.
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Re: Shame

Post by kellytehuna »

7966969 wrote:
Pretty much the response I'd expect from you.
I like the passion / desire for knowledge and applaud your constant willingness to share such with others. I visit this site to increase my knowledge and understanding..and yes, some of that knowledge / understanding has to be credited to your efforts.
I'm not criticizing as much as simply acknowledging what is often the elephant in the room on this site..too many people are afraid to express their individual opinions, ideas, and experiences for fear it will be shot down,belittled, disproven,etc., if they don't line up with your opinions / findings. That's the shame, I referred to.
Guess, I better return to my rightful place of sitting on the sidelines with my worthless reputation.
The problem is not that you disagree. If it had been a simple disagreement, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have received the "bad reputation" points you did. It was that you basically stated the entire membership is basically here to massage Mr. Pinel's ego and follow his teachings like the blind sheep we apparently are.

If you take the time to read through the material, you will find that there are a multitude of conversations that directly contest points Mr. Pinel has made here and elsewhere. At these junctures, Mr. Pinel and/or Mr. Freshour (MathIsTruth) and occasionally, Mr. Ridenour provide documented proof from the many lengthy studies they've conducted supporting their findings.

It's hard to argue hard documented proof of one's position. Especially when the vast majority of the results have been independently verified by other reputable members of bowling's intelligentia.
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Re: Shame

Post by cgeorg »

kellytehuna wrote:If you take the time to read through the material, you will find that there are a multitude of conversations that directly contest points Mr. Pinel has made here and elsewhere. At these junctures, Mr. Pinel and/or Mr. Freshour (MathIsTruth) and occasionally, Mr. Ridenour provide documented proof from the many lengthy studies they've conducted supporting their findings.
This is generally the case, but the presentation of "facts" without evidence has been made by even folks with very high reputation on this site.
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